AXSChat with Stephanie Cadieux, Canada’s Chief Accessibility Officer

Stephanie Cadieux is a change leader, an advocate for diversity, accessibility, disability inclusion and an entrepreneur with more than 15 years of experience in planning and leadership roles.

Her four-year appointment as the Government of Canada’s Chief Accessibility Officer began on May 2, 2022.

Before her appointment, Ms. Cadieux was a member of the Legislative Assembly of British Columbia from 2009 to 2022.  She was the Minister of Children and Family Development from 2012 to 2017, and between 2010 and 2012, held various positions, including Minister of Social Development; Minister of Labour, Citizens’ Services and Open Government; and Minister of Community, Sport and Cultural Development.

Prior to her engagement in provincial politics, Ms. Cadieux was the director of marketing and public relations for the BC Paraplegic Association from 2004 until 2009. She was also the provincial peer coordinator for this organization from 2001 until 2004.

Ms. Cadieux is a member of the disability community, using a wheelchair since the age of 18.  Her lived experience allows her to have a deep understanding of accessibility issues faced by people with disabilities.

Transcript

0:00

This is a draft transcript produced live at the event and corrected for spelling and basic errors. AXSCHAT Stephanie Cadieux

NEIL: 0:06

Hello and welcome to Axschat. I'm really, really genuinely excited, more so than usual because today we've got Stephanie Cadieux on who is the first Chief Accessibility Officer of a country that any of us know. So, welcome Stephanie and congratulations to you and to Canada for taking this really impactful step and putting accessibility at the heart of the nation.

STEPHANIE: 0:30

Thank you.

NEIL: 0:31

So, brilliant to have you with us and thank you for making the time. I know you're up really early because you’re on the Pacific coast, and we're recording this in afternoon UK time, which is very early morning for you. So, thank you. No Antonio today, he is travelling, but Debra and I are really keyed up to talk to you about your role. First up, can you tell us a little bit about your background how you came into the role and then I'd love to hear about what it means to be the Chief Accessibility Officer of a country.

STEPHANIE: 1:11

Well, thank you first for having me on. I've been following you for quite some time, so it's an honour for me as well. And so, my background, well, I've been around a while. Not new to this space. I had a spinal cord injury when I was 18, which thrust my life on a completely different path than I had intended but after bouncing around a little bit, I ended up in working for not-for-profit organisation, in an entrepreneurial role, which suited my background and skills to build a peer support programme for people with spinal cord injuries. I did that and while doing that sort of really found my groove inside the not-for-profit sector looking but starting to look more at the larger issues, advocacy and our relationship with government and so on. That led to me being approached to run for public office, which I did and I served the last 13 years as a provincial member of the legislature and represented my community and I spent seven years at the Cabinet table in a variety of roles, as Minister of Social Development, which carried the disability file, Minister of Children and Families, which also carried a large portion of the disability file as it related to children and a couple of other roles for shorter periods before that. And then this role came about. The federal government passed the Accessible Candidate Act, in 2019. Yay and that was a long time coming. Obviously, being neighbours to the US, we were obviously aware of what was going on with the ADA for a very long time. But I think actually Canada thought we don't need to do that because we are just doing it for all the right reasons. But, myself included, rose coloured glasses off and understanding over 30 years that we needed a lot more stick and a little less carrot. And so, hence I think the federal government moved with the Accessible Candidate Act and I think it was unanimously passed by Parliament. So, that was a good sign, in 2019. This role was one of the legislative roles inside the Act and when they advertised that they were looking for someone and I decided I needed to put my hand up and here I am.

NEIL: 4:18

Excellent. You mentioned there are two roles. So there is also the Commissioner role as well. So, the Accessible Candidate Act, landmark piece of legislation and you got these two roles. So, you got the Commissioner and the CAO. What are the two, what do the two different roles do? How do they play out and which one has the...

STEPHANIE: 4:47

There is three actually because the Act put in place Accessibility Standards Canada which is an organisation which is in place to develop and set the standards that may or may not be put into law as regulation in all of the various areas. The Accessibility Commissioner was also appointed in May of this year when I was and the Commissioner sits in the Human Rights Commission and that role is to monitor compliance and enforcement of the Act as we role forward. It will be the complaints mechanism for the majority of the organisations that are captured under the Act. There is a, it's a bit complex when we get down there because there are a number of agencies that have that regulatory power for their certain area but that's the complaints and enforcement mechanism. He's the bad guy. I like to say, I'm the good cop inside government saying let's do more. So, really my role is to champion and challenge inside government, I would argue the work to the act and my role is actually, as an independent special advisor to the Minister responsible for the Act. So, I will provide to the Minister, on annual basis, a report that will be tabled in Parliament about the progress we are making towards the goal of the Act or the goals of the Act, which is a barrier free Canada by 2040 which seems a long way away but it is not and those of us who have worked in the field know it's going to take some time but that's my legislative role is to act as an advisor to the Minister. I can provide other reports. I can do other things. But that's the one sort of mandatory annual sort of reporting structure for me. And in that I'm going to look not only at what we are doing and where we are making those gains, but also, what are the emerging trends, issues, things we need to be aware of as we move forward, as things change in the world around us. Are there places in the world that are ahead of us on something where we should be taking information and learning and developing based on what is going on in other places. So, there is a lot of room for me to work but I really do see the role as I do that monitoring work. It's really to also challenge and inspire inside government to keep this agenda front and centre and to make sure that we are striving and not settling.

DEBRA: 7:48

Oh, I love that last statement. Let's strive and not settle. I, Stephanie, we talked before we get got on but I'm joining from the States but we in the States have made, it's a little messy here and you know, our litigation is way up and we are going after each other and I was actually speaking for Helen Keller yesterday and one of the groups that you know Helen Keller and somebody said, well does it cause problems and I said absolutely, what has happened because of the way we are doing things in the States, it's all about compliance, it's all about litigation, it has really created an us and them and we are fighting each other and it's very obvious that's happening in the States and it's sad. I'm also a little bit sad because I love my country so much because I looked it up, there are 185 countries, including Canada and the UK that have ratified the CRPD, but unfortunately my beautiful country has not, and we are one of the countries that haven't. That makes me sad as a citizen because once you leave our borders, you are not protected by our Americans with Disability Act. It has also made me sad that my government has not made a priority of creating a leader like you Stephanie for our country. We have done a lot to figure accessibility, human centre design, all of that out. But the thing that is still really freaking me out a bit is that we know how to make things accessible, I don't care how big your country is, or how big your government is but we know how to do it. It's actually a pain in the butt doing it some and it's easy to forget blah, blah, blah. So, I like that Canada actually really is responding to what the citizens need. It doesn't, I'm sure you are super political and I don't even understand how political you are, but it just seems from looking from the United States into Canada, that I just am so grateful that they appointed you and that we have a Chief Accessibility Officer of a major country and I really wonder what the other countries are doing because Canada set the bar, really, what? States, what the heck are you doing over there? So, I want to say that, but I also want to say that it is other responsibility. Anyone that's watching this, it's our responsibility get behind Stephanie and make her the best CAO that was ever created in the world because they did it first. But she can't do it alone, I think of this, I can't help it, but I think of, Obama didn't say, yes, I can. He said yes, we can.

STEPHANIE: 10:40

We can.

DEBRA: 10:41

So, I just want to say that because, I'm actually proud and envious of what you are doing in Canada. I would be curious because of my stupid US brain, how will the enforcement work because I know in the States, we are doing it a little wildly. We are suing people and because we are suing people and we have sued a lot of brands, corporate brands, but because we are doing that, they are trying to figure it out but also, I think the problem we are causing is we are causing it only to be about a compliance conversation. One more comment, Stephanie, and then I'll be quiet, I remember speaking to somebody that's way up in the military of our Metaverse and I was talking about this, and he was saying, you mean 508. I was saying, no I don't. I'm not talking about compliance, I'm not talking about section 508, I'm talking about we know how to design technology so that humans can use it. Could we please do that? We know how to do it now, Stephanie. So you've a very important role, but it must be really intimidating to be the first. Yes. Thank you.

STEPHANIE: 11:51

It is, let's be honest. You know, there is a great deal of pressure that I'm putting on myself to make sure that I do this the right way that I set the office up for success no matter who follows. You know and I hope I last long enough to accomplish that but, you know I think we are, you know, you mentioned compliance and litigation and how we are doing and it is, I think always a challenge and, you know and I look Canada has a robust human rights framework, you know, disability always been protected but it doesn't mean that has been translated to inclusion or acceptance on the ground and you know, we talk about, you know accommodations and these sorts of things and we say, well I'm doing it because I have to. Well, I have to do this. Not, hey, what can we do to make sure that this works for everybody? Those two things sound very different. And, that approach is what, I think ultimately is different and as I said earlier, you know, we didn't, we thought oh, we are doing it well. We can do it, just with motivation. Now we are realising now we need a little more than motivation to get it done. There is a balance to fight because I really don't believe, I believe societally, certainly culturally in society, we have accepted the fact that people with disabilities are full citizens, should be included, should be everywhere, have all the same rights. We you know, of course, that should be accessible, you know. But it still hasn't translated into action or into a reality for people with disabilities and so really, what I see as our biggest challenge is culture. We still have to get at that unconscious bias that allows people to not do it right. Right? You know and it is not intentional, I really don't believe it is an intentional thing people set out to do. It is just that deep held belief in there somewhere from an experience in their life, at some point that says disability is less. Disability is not as important. We don't have to worry about that and it's not me. And, what we need to get to is, it's everybody, we need to just build things right in the first place and what I ultimately want to leave is you know, if it's not accessible, it's just wrong.

DEBRA: 14:41

Right. Right, it's amazing, why would you build anything to leave people out? We know how to do this. Okay Neil, you go. I'm going to not rant.

NEIL: 14:54

Okay, so, I think that you know, you've already said you’re the good cop. So, you're the one that is helping lead the culture change with the honey or the carrots and we are on a panel together only about two weeks ago and we were talking about some of this, and I think that culture change is part of also systemic change.

STEPHANIE: 15:19

It is.

NEIL: 15:21

And so, there is a need, not just legislation, but your standards and the norms and how organisations and countries and political bodies and local society do these things that needs to change over time and some of that is mindset and culture but some of it is also process and leading this through creating a framework that enables organisations to make that change because, I think that lot of people look at this and say I know we should but it's too hard or where do I start and we haven't got much time and so, we have to make that time and give people and be realistic and pragmatic and as members of the community, sometimes that's hard right? Because we have our needs and we have our requirements to be included and what we are saying here is actually we are going to have to wait for jam tomorrow because we can't all have jam today, if we want everybody to be included. So, by saying that you'll have an accessible candidate by 2040, you're creating the space to do some of that. Which I think is important because I think surely, you're going to be under pressure, why can't you do it by 2030, that's eight years, isn't that enough for you?

STEPHANIE: 16:50

Why can't we do it by 2023?

NEIL: 16:52

Yes, why haven't we done it already? We should have done, but let's be real. So, what are the sort of strategic things that you think will help industry and government and the Canadian public service start to imbed this more? Because it's not just standards, it's all of those other things. So, what do you think can be the leavers that drive this?

STEPHANIE: 17:16

I think the way the legislation was drafted, the only regulation, at this point, the only thing that they actually have to do right now is create a plan. It's go out, it's talk to people with disabilities in their organisations, in their public, develop a plan under these seven areas that the legislation touches on, employment, communication, communication technology, transportation, built environment, procurement, policy and programme. They have to look at all those areas and say how are we doing? What do we need to do better and how do we get there? So, you know that is the way we start to build a plan to 2040, right? And allow them some space to look at themselves and say, oh, well, I hadn't thought of that. Well, that doesn't make us bad, we just haven't done it and now we can because now we've been told. Now we understand and now we have a plan to get there because we are all impatient, members of the community are all impatient for very good reason. But we also have to recognise that there is a lot of, this is a lot of change, this is a lot, it's a lot of moving parts and there are things that are, at some point, at some times, kind of competitive and counter intuitive. So, we need to do this collectively, we need to do it together and, the Act starts with the federal government agencies and the federally regulated sectors. So, there is going to be a momentum that builds slowly as they do that work and as that work impacts out. So, our provinces also need to have legislation, most do now. But, they need to come in with something complimentary for all of the jurisdiction that they have because they do in our country have jurisdiction over things like on a day to day basis, education, healthcare, transportation and in province transportation and things like that. So, there is a lot of places where, for a person with a disability, the federal government, we can have the most accessible federal government ever, it wouldn't affect most people. I mean most people don't wake up in the morning and go hey, how do I interact with my federal government today, right? So, what we need is for all of those other agencies, all of those other regulatory bodies etc to come in place underneath and mimic or mirror what the federal government is doing in their own areas and that's the municipalities, that's the provinces and that's the private sector. And so, you know, I want to be able to go to a restaurant and not worry about the fact that they only have high top tables. I want to be able to go to the store and be able to get in, even when there is snow piled up, right? So, there is a lot of trickle down. And to really truly get to a barrier free Canada, we have to have everybody pulling together. It's an all-hands-on deck effort. But that also means it's a lot of education, it's a lot of process and a lot of culture change and it will come. But we now have an app and a, you know like it or not, we now have a me, that's going to...

DEBRA: 21:09

We like it.

STEPHANIE: 21:10

That's going to you know wave that flag, shine that light and keep us pushing in that direction.

DEBRA: 21:17

You know Stephanie, I have, we could talk I know for days and days but, I want to bring up some complications that we've seen in the States. So, I'm very proud of everything we've done. I think we've tried really hard, and we've had progress, yay for us but wow, we also messed things up so bad along the way. And that by the way is what we call progress right? Because that's just what happens. But it was interesting here in the States and that when we were doing it, the ADA, the section 508, the different laws that we ask our government to do it first. You eat the dogfood first, see how that goes and we'll learn from you. We did some very interesting, our trusted testers, it was fascinating to me, as a citizen, and I was a consultant too, but as a citizen to see which of our agencies stepped up. Because some of our agencies that stepped up, it sort of surprised me because actually they had a get out of jail free card as they say, with monopoly. But like with our Department of Defence, which has 23 agencies underneath it, they are the ones that created the trusted testers. So, and they actually could've gotten out of it. But anyway, I thought that was interesting as a citizen to watch. But I think also what has gotten very, very, confusing is for me and I know you can't fix all this Stephanie but we see the accessibility community, the accessibility industry, doing things, investors coming in, investing in products that actually leave large sections of our community out, like for example some accessibility overlays and so, you know, one thing I'm so confused about is how in the world do you try to get your hands around the market not playing appropriately with because I keep saying to like to quirks, like Neil, it's a bad example because Neil is such an expert in this but buyer beware, know what you're doing, look what the community is saying, but we don't see that happening very well. So, I say that to you empathetically because you're actually trying to solve some gigantic social issues that society hasn't figured out. So, good luck with that Stephanie.

STEPHANIE: 23:46

Thank you and you're right, there are challenges like that. And I mean ultimately what the goal is, is that through this work and as government does with purchasing power and influence, we can start to demand that, right? So, we can start to say, we can start to have, within the procurement policies, an assurance that what we are buying and what government is buying works but it won't, we will make mistakes. There will be things that we have to learn to fail forward with, right? We will go, okay, we, that didn't work out. We need to go a different direction or we need to double back and fix that. Let's hope there is not too many of those. Let's hope we start to ask the right questions early but, it's going to happen, and we know that.

DEBRA: 24:53

We learn from our mistakes Stephanie; I mean that's how we learn.

STEPHANIE: 24:57

Exactly, that's human.

DEBRA: 24:58

We got to give people a chance to make mistakes too.

STEPHANIE: 25:01

And we want people to not be afraid to start. As Neil said, before it's too overwhelming, so I don't know even where to go. We want people to start. Right? And for me, part of my job I think in the first year is really trying to find and set that baseline from which we are working. Where are we today? You know? And because if we're going to measure progress, we really need to know where we are. So, that will be one of the things I need to do. But the other thing will be to highlight for agencies, what other agencies are doing, where are there best practices, where are these little things. For example, you know, we have beautiful natural environment in Canada, right? And we want people to be able to enjoy it, all people. What does that mean for our National Park service? What does that mean, how do you make parks and mountains and oceans accessible to people? You know, that is complex, difficult, expensive but there are things that we can do to improve what we have today. And, there is an example of somebody on the front lines, in one of our smallest provinces, I think, who took it upon themselves to get a beach mat for one of the local beaches and immediately it opens up use of that park and that beach to all sorts of groups who are doing adapted recreation, to families, to people who have never been there before. It was a small thing and it's not everything. But it was a good step forward. And we need to let people know that taking those steps is positive and it's a move in the right direction. So, even if you can't do everything today, get started.

NEIL: 27:08

Absolutely. And those steps, you keep moving forwards, you find when you look back that you've been on a journey, and you've progressed. A lot of the accessibility industry and a lot of organisations are now deploying maturity models, essentially what you're doing, at this point is going through your countrywide maturity assessment of government and the federal government at that. I think that one of the things we do when we do maturity work with people is, the first thing we say is, don't beat yourselves up about where you are now. It's meant to be objective and the point is you're doing this exercise because you've the goodwill that you want to improve and so, don't, mark yourself realistically, be honest about you know the gaps that you have but don't feel bad about them because you know, the fact that you're taking part in this exercise means that you wish to address them. But it also means that you can then, through these exercises, align within the case of us, organisations strategies, in the case of Canada it's the governmental strategies and the long term aims of the federal government to society so, that you're not coming against the flow of everything else because I think that when we think about the amount of energy we expend on some of these efforts, we have a limited amount of energy to do this stuff and a limited amount of resource, if we align that with some of the other activities that are taking place, then we are likely to get a lot more bang for our Canadian book.

STEPHANIE: 29:11

There's lots of examples of where we've done hard stuff before, where we have embedded a lens on sustainability for example, on greening our infrastructure and these sorts of things. We have done hard things before, and this is no different. It takes that same effort and I think we do have to acknowledge that nobody has got it perfect, nobody is perfect, and, in many ways, we won't ever be perfect because there will always be new things, changing things and we will need to adapt. We have to be flexible, and we have to be adaptable and gosh knows, people with disabilities are flexible and adaptable and innovate every day. So, we can add value in doing that work but, nobody is perfect. There are corporations out there that are doing a really good job of some of this and there are governments that are doing a really good job of some of this. But I haven't found anywhere in the world that has got it all right. And you know, Canada has set a goal post and by-passing legislation and putting in place myself and these other entities has said, we are going to do this. We are committed to it. That is a big step for our country to make and I'm really glad that our country did that cross politics, right? This is not a political issue, implementation is challenging. There may be political decisions that have to be made at some point, that will not be my role anymore. But the reality is that we've agreed we need to do it. Now, how? Now it's the how. Now it's the nitty gritty.

NEIL: 31:00

That's great I think you're right, that statement of intent is in itself very powerful, and I think you mentioned green, well, sustainability is a huge issue but actually disability inclusion is part of sustainability. We talk about the sustainable development goals that's in there and one of the things I'm passionate about is making people understand the economic concept of externalities. We understand them in terms of pollution, smog and carbon emissions but they come in design too and they come in societal impacts. So, when we design inclusively, when we plan, when I talk about design, it could be designing policy, it could be designing how government works. Then we can create those positive externalities and a more inclusive society that are so important. So, I think it's fantastic that the long-term vision of the Canadian government and the fact that it is across politics and apolitical, I think it's a marker for the rest of the world to follow hope they do. And I know Debra wants to get in one more comment. But whilst I remember, I want to thank My Clear Text for keeping us captioned and our friends for supporting us through our Go Fund Me. And I'll hand it over to Debra to close. Thank you very much Debra.

DEBRA: 32:26

Yes, thank you Neil and the question I have for you Stephanie and we talked this before we got on air. But first of all, thank you Canada for putting you in as their Chief Accessibility Officer, that is such a major leadership thing, I'm so proud of Canada. But I believe our entire communities, all of our industries everyone has to get behind you. So, you have to be successful, you have to be, and we all need you to be successful. And you're going to make mistakes. But I would say, the one thing I would like to ask you is what can our entire global community and industries do to get behind you Stephanie? What can we do to help you? I know you're being seen right now and you're on this show and there's others, but honestly, I really think it's all of our jobs to help you and so, maybe you know, you can think about it and tell us now. But also, as you maybe you could come back in eight or nine months and tell us, okay what do you need now because we got to get behind you and make you successful. And obviously you're the right person but I just am saying to the audience, if we don't get behind her and she fails, this is our failure. We cannot allow this to happen. Sorry.

STEPHANIE: 33:44

With that pressure.

DEBRA: 33:46

I'm bad about that.

STEPHANIE: 33:48

Thanks so much. You know what, the reality is going to take like I said, all hands-on deck and for the community and the advocacy community, in the trenches every day, accessibility community who is doing this work, I need your expertise. I need you to tell me things. I need you to show me things and, help me amplify the need, help me amplify the business case. What are we doing this? Why does it matter? Not just because it's the law not just because it's the right thing to do but because there is also, there's a real business case to do it and that's not to take away from the fact that it's the right thing to do because ultimately that's duh, but actually our official social media accounts launched yesterday for my office. So, please help me spread the word and certainly you know we'll spread yours as well. But it's coming together.

DEBRA: 34:59

Do you know, it's not, I said that I'll ask Jennifer.

STEPHANIE: 35:04

Yeah, that's too parts for me to fight. Unfortunately nothing is easy.

DEBRA: 35:10

Okay, we'll find it out and make sure the audience knows.

STEPHANIE: 35:13

Yeah, I appreciate that and like I say, I need everyone's expertise, I'm not an expert in all of this. I am a champion for it. I will lean on others to bring that expertise to the table.

DEBRA: 35:28

Right and Stephanie you also need, I'm going finish answering the question for you, you need the corporations, the multinational corporations to get behind you, to share what they have done. For example, I'm just bragging about Neil and ATOS, what they have done with apprenticeships for accessibilities, you know professionals, oh my gosh! And somebody was talking about in the States, and I said, did you see what they did over there in the UK? Oh no, please, and there are maturity models, that like, yeah, so one thing I think we all could do. If you have something that's really good. Send it to Stephanie, send it to Canada so that they can look and see, oh maybe this. I just thing it takes all of us, I will officially stop talking, Neil.

STEPHANIE: 36:12

Thank you Debra and thank you, Neil.

NEIL: 36:14

Thank you, and it's been great having you on the show and yes, looking forward to welcoming you back already and really looking for forward to the conversation we are going to have on Twitter so, thank you.

STEPHANIE: 36:26

Yes, thank you.

NEIL: 36:27

It's been a real pleasure. Thank you.

DEBRA: 36:29

Bye everyone.