Antonio Santos is a Social Media Business Evangelist and Senior Workplace Expert at Atos, focusing on Digital Inclusion, Social Media Engagement, and Social Business. He is a Sociologist with expertise in Applied Research; he previously worked in the Media, Military, Public Sector and Telecom before joining Siemens IT in 2006 in Cork and Atos in 2011. According to Onalytica, which measures online presence and influence, Antonio is the 3rd most influential employee in the world in Consulting based on data from Twitter and LinkedIn and number one on Sustainability amongst employees of the 48 most important consulting companies globally. Antonio collaborates with Meghan M. Biro on Talent Culture, an award-winning website and podcast on the future of work. They have interviewed and hosted Twitter chats with industry leaders from the Enterprise and Academia.
More recently, Antonio co-founded the Digital Transformation Lab at the University College of Cork. The Lab focuses on digital innovation, entrepreneurship and technology in various enterprises within the private and public sectors. DT-Lab aims to provide leadership in digital strategy, innovation and execution.
Debra Ruh is a seasoned entrepreneur that focuses on Global Disability Inclusion, ICT Accessibility, EmployAbility, Marketing and Communications Strategies and Digital Media. She has provided global leadership to governments, corporations, NGOs and DPO’s (Disability Persons Organizations) all over the world supporting research, outreach, marketing strategies, policy and standards initiatives with public- and private-sector. Policy, Legislative and Technical Experience includes the United Nations Convention of Rights for People with Disabilities (CRPD), Americans with Disabilities Act (ADA), Section 503, 504 and 508 of the Rehabilitation Act of 1973, W3C, WCAG 2.0 and ISO. Debra is also a seasoned Entrepreneur (founder of three firms): Ruh Global Communications, TecAccess, Strategic Performance Solutions.
Debra is passionate about Social Media and a Thought Leader and Blogger on ICT Accessibility and Disability Inclusion on social media channels with over 130,000 followers. Social media mediums include Twitter, Linked-In, Facebook, Pinterest, Tumblr, G+ and other platforms. Work featured in major mediums including CBS, CNN, PBS, ABC, NBC, NPR, INC, Publishers Weekly, Fortune Magazine, US News & World Report, America’s Best, Washington Technology, and Bloomberg Business Week. Debra has published many white papers, is a newsletter editor for IAAP and a Published Author of two books:
Neil Milliken is Vice President & Global Head of Accessibility & Digital Inclusion at Atos, a member of the Atos Scientific Community & Atos Distinguished Expert, an invited expert for the W3C Cognitive Accessibility Taskforce.
Neil is a member of the Board of Directors for the World Institute on Disability, a Non-Exec Chair of the Board at Genius Within, a member of the advisory board of the Valuable500 & Board member of Billion Strong and was Chair of the Diversity Board for the Institute of Coding from 2019 – 2021. Neil was named in the top ten of the
This is a draft transcript produced live at the event and corrected for spelling and basic errors. AXSCHAT Debra, Neil, Antonio 14th February 2023
NEIL:
Hello and welcome to Axschat. We are doing a quick short one today. Just really following up on some of the things that Caroline Casey and Valuable 500 raised in Davos, about a month ago and that is really around businesses being accountable. So, one of the things that Valuable 500 have called for is metrics and reporting and one of the things that I have been passionate about for a long time, is making sure that we start including meaningful metrics around disability, in the ESG data that the large corporations actually report when they are doing their ESG reports or their corporate social responsibility reporting. There are ratings agencies that specialise in this stuff and when they talk about sustainability, they have lots of stuff in great detail on decarbonisation, gender initiatives, all sorts of other diversity initiatives but yet, when it comes to disability, there are only really sort of two questions that get asked. One is, how many disabled people do you employ and tell us some nice things that you do. Now, firstly, of course knowing the number of people with disabilities in your organisation is important because it helps you know, it helps you know, if we know some numbers hopefully we'll grow them. But at the same time they are never going to be accurate, because firstly, people are still nervous, secondly, there is a difference between self ID and often legally identifying yourself and declaring a disability, which can give you a totally different status in different countries. And then there are different legislations that means that it's a requirement in some countries to collect this data and illegal in others. So, that makes it problematic. And then being able to tell nice stories doesn't give you really granular detail or the ability to compare apples with apples. So, really welcome this initiative to looking at different areas of disability and collusion and start to take that further. But, and I know Debra is going to have some comments on this, do you think that large corporations are ready for this? Do you think they have the skills or the infrastructure to be able to provide this data if indexes like GRI or the Dow Jones sustainability index start coming and asking for it.
DEBRA:
And I would say also Neil, that we also have disability groups that are creating indexes or equality you know, projects, you know to help shorten this data, but sometimes the data that they are putting out there and that they are asking for can actually hurt our community. I know there is this one group, who I won't name, that they have equality thing you can fill out and pay for. But the reality is that information has sometimes been used against the community of people with disabilities. And I have seen scores of 100, the first time in. And I have had corporations come back to me and said, gosh Debra we got this index and we got an 80 to 100 and then our budgets were cut. And then they said, okay great so you'll solved the disability problem, let's go focus civil on the LGBT or the gender or the other diversity. And so, I also hope that part of the other conversations we have, let's have data that we gather that actually benefits the community of people with disabilities. And as Neil state it is complicated, here the United States you can't us if we have a disability. And by the way, with all the technology layoffs that are happening I think people are getting even more scared to tell you because there's a perception, if you have a disability, you're broken. So, I am not going to tell you I have a disability when we see mass layoffs in our technology field. Even though that's I think there's a little bit of game going on there too. But, I am really glad that Dr Caroline Casey is really stepping up and calling for this because we do need the metrics and I would also say Neil, I hope I don't sound unsympathetic but I sort of don't care if the big corporations are ready for it or not or can do it. My expectation, which is totally unfair, especially because I have worked for those big corporations, is because I want you to do it and I want you to fix the things that are wrong with society. Neil, you're ATOS, so, I need you to be fully accessible and I don't care what it takes. So, the community has some of that. We don't really care what you take you brands to figure it out. But we do expect you to. So, I understand the realities and the nuances of these things, which is why we talk about this every week for the last eight to thine years. But I think a lot of the community would say, we don't really care. We are just tired of not being included in a really meaningful way. So, it's just all these nuances. But let me turn it over to Antonio.
ANTONIO:
I think, just this type of data is going to be really important. However, you know, we look at different countries have different regulations and legislation and they measure things differently. So, we need to come up with a solution that you know, if a company from France is sharing data about employees with disabilities, they share it in a format and with certain items that are able to compare that data with a company from the United States. So, we need to find ways where this data matches, otherwise much of the data will be pretty much useless because, you know, in some countries quotas require that in terms of employment, that people who have assessment of 60%, in terms of disability, they are the once who qualify to be part of the quotas. If you are below that, you are not qualified to be part of the quotas in terms of disability employment. That doesn't mean you don't have disability or accommodations. We need to qualify all these grey areas to make sure we don't end up, you know, suddenly everyone goes after the data then we have the data and then we realise Oh, we need to do it again because there is nothing we can do with it.
DEBRA:
I agree.
NEIL:
I think that is a fair point. When you came after me saying you know, we want you to do this stuff, I said fine, we are trying. I think that we are very much mindful that we want good quality data. You know, in fact, while I really welcome the initiative from Valuable 500, I want to go further faster. So, they have got five key criteria and I think they are a good starting point for the moving that big group of organisations along. So, you have got workforce representation and they are talking about identity here. So, it's not what percentage of the company's workforce identifies as disabled or living with a disability. Still thinks it's kind of problematic, it's one of the more challenging ones right, because you need a whole cultural change behind that and in a multinational it gets harder as well. Then, it's like, does the company have disability specific goals and are there business needs. I think that is good because you know, it should be in the balance score card of the executives, right. Is there training, right for managers and employees, are there employee resource groups and do they have an executive sponsor because it's all very well to have an ERG but if it doesn't have sponsorship, doesn't have the money, it doesn't have access or whatever. And then of course, there's digital accessibility, which is of course, the thing we talk most about and does the company have a review of its platforms and content. And I think that what is interesting is that they are working with London Stock Exchange Group, so, it's an organisation that is very much used to reporting and metrics and everything else. So, it's you know, a good starting point. And they come up with, you know some interesting data on the back of that. But, I know for the Footsie 100, which is the UK's largest companies, only 19 of those companies report on disabilities in their workforce.
DEBRA:
Wow.
NEIL:
It's an improvement, it's gone up from three to 16, in 2021. So, it's moving forwards and only 3% of that Footsie 100, actually report on disability representation in senior management. And that is a really telling stat. I think it's these next level stats that really start to give you the more interesting data. Right. So, okay, maybe you have got 5% of your workforce have a disability. But 0.1% of your management have a disability or are identified. You know, it's understanding that and the systemic that helps you understand the systemic barriers. So, I think that again, this is really a way of reporting and standardisation of reporting can really help. So, I think that, it's a really positive move and I think that what it can do is help move the needle forwards somewhat in terms of getting companies to a point where they understand that they are going to be compared and contrasted on these topics and that this therefore becomes something more important because it's going to impact their share price and therefore that has a meaningful material impact on the value of the company, the top people's pay. You know all of these things. So, I think that the reporting has much more than just being a sort of benchmark. It actually acts as a real incentive and leaver to change things.
DEBRA:
I agree. And once again, I appreciate them standing up and taking this leadership. But I also hope that they are going to talk to the right people to get this done. I'll give you an example. Here in the States when we had our section 508, which started a lot of these accessibility conversations here in the States, obviously. What we eventually did after I think it was about six or seven years after, we put some teeth in our section 508 law. What we did and I was so excited when we did this, we went to our governments and the government agencies have a score card and the score card, I believe is I am going to forget which agency. Anyway, I'll think about which agency it is, but there is a score card that each of our agencies have and the score cards, it looks at different things, how is the agency doing all over, how are the executives doing, it's a score card of a lot of different things. They put section 508 in there and when they did that, that made my heart sing. I was so happy because now for many years, the United States government, the agencies are rated on how they are doing with accessibility. Now, I am not saying all of our agencies have got it down and right because they don't but actually they have made, in some ways, more progress than others. So, I think there are information that we have out there that we can pull into it. But, what I would be afraid of is, if we are going to decide to do this just from a small group of people that think the same way, I think because as the three of us are talking about right now, this is so nuanced. You know, how do you do it when there are different laws. How to you do it when for example the American Disabilities Act has a different description, definition of people with disabilities than the Convention on the Rights of Persons with Disabilities. So, did you take both of those into consideration? There are just so many moving parts. I am hoping, I know how smart the Valuable 500 is, so, I hope they get the right players involved in this. I do believe it's the only way we are going to make progress on this. Right now we have groups, there is a group came out that said we are going to go after the Footsie 100, and we are going to create our own diversity thing. So, they went to valuable 500 and said, well no, we just really want to focus on what we are doing. But there are other groups that are popping up and saying they can tell you whether or not you're doing this right and they have nothing to do with our community, which is another reason why I created Billion Strong because we actually want you to talk to our community because we got a lot of people in our community. And so, all these are really important nuances. But I just want to say as somebody that speaks for the community, as does Antonio and Neil, I am proud of ATOS because what I have seen is innovation happening in the brand. I am so sorry Neil, to compliment you and Antonio but I do appreciate the leadership that I've seen and I will say a mean thing to ATOS and that I'd like to see you do a better job of supporting the efforts of Neil and Antonio and other brilliant thing are doing. But, I know you're in the middle of dividing the company up. But, at the same time I am grateful for the leadership. And I see it in a few other brands but I'm not seeing it in many brands. I am not seeing it in many brands. So, I think getting the right people in the conversations is still very critically important and looking at all of these nuances.
NEIL:
Yeah. So, thank you and I do see other brands doing stuff too. I think I am actually really heartened by the growth in organisations that are taking disabilities seriously. I think if you just look at the number of job roles that are out there now, it's manifesting different from what it was only a few years ago and there are different profiles of the companies doing it. I think you know, we are delighted to be engaged fully and yes, ATOS is in the process of spinning out into two organisations but, you know, that is double the opportunities for accessibility. So, let's take the positive view on this, I am ever the optimist. I do take your point about the challenges of disability data and you know, there have been workshops which Valuable 500, convened where people have talked about these challenges and I think there is a need to probably have dual reporting. So, what you need is self ID data and official country statistics because that then gives you the ability to better compare like with like because, you know, each country will have specific laws, so, you'll be able to have a breakdown so you can compare France in one company with France in another. You can compare Germany which has specific disclosure requirements with another German arm of someone in your field and then you can also look at the sort of cultural aspects with self ID and also you know, not just existence of networks, but I think over time vibrancy of networks and what their effect is. They also have five other things which they were looking at in terms of the qualities of what they were trying to do. One is that the data needed to be transparent and in public domain, needed to be scalable so it would work over lots of different sectors, just what we were talking about. Timeliness and I think this is really key, it should be published at the same time as your financial reporting. This is something that we already do at ATOS. We do dual reporting and we have this URD as well. So, there is a lot going on this very work as the organisation gathers all of its sustainability inclusion, diversity data into a report which we publish every year and then you know it's the quality and the assurance of that data, making sure that it's done rigorously and I think that is get yet to come. Right, I think there is work to be done everywhere on this. You know and there is a little bit going on. In the UK, we have the disability confidence scheme and you can't get that without being externally audited by a separate body. Right, so for us to get disability confidence level 3, we had to be audited by business disability forum to say, actually yes, you have done this, your processes are in place. You have got a culture, etc. Much like you would have a financial audit. I think that we don't have the equivalent of that at a global scale yet and then their final principle, which I think is absolutely sensible which is do no significant harm because actually the disclosure of data is fraught with potential difficulty and danger for individuals. So, we need to be mindful of that because, while we all want to grow the numbers of disabled people in an organisation, we need to be mindful that there are pockets of culture within even really disability positive organisations, where talking about your disabilities and disclosing can cause you significant harm. It can lead to bullying; it can lead to exclusion and impact your career prospects. So, we do need to be mindful of that as we do the work.
ANTONIO:
I think in UK and considering the fact that there are organisations partnering with Valuable 500, they are also a very, organisations like Business Disability Forum and My Purple Space, they are able to speak a business language. They are able to engage with business and in some countries, we don't have that. So, you might go to other places and Valuable might struggle to find a partner that is able to engage with business, using a language that business understand. So, I think that would be something that might have to be considered. In some countries there are partnerships. There is a culture that has been built over the years and in other countries, there is a complete disconnect when organisations talk about disability and when organisations talk about, the connect is not there and I think that might delay things a little bit.
DEBRA:
And Antonio, I would also like to say unfortunately we also have some business-to- business organisations that are trying to help corporations include people with disabilities in some countries and I won't name one that I am thinking of that are not really doing the right things by the community of people with disabilities. We feel that a lot of the programmes that are put in place actually are advantageous to the corporate brand but don't do not really do the right thing by our community. So, that's another thing we have to look at. We have leaders like BDF and My Purple Space and The Amazing Kate. And you have a lot of you know, wonderful organisations but just because an organisation says that they are supporting the community doesn't mean that they are. Sometimes they are supporting their pocketbooks, their wallets and we, by the way know it in the community. And once again that's another reason why Billion Strong is being created not to harass others but just to make sure we are having valuable conversations and that we are coming together as a community but we don't want is you to use these metrics and these tools to take advantage of our community and unfortunately, here in the United States, some of that has happened and I unfortunately have quite a bit of grounding for that.
ANTONIO:
I have to say by following by sometimes conversations particularly in the last three years of the Pandemic, some entities they say Oh, this is the gold rush for accessibility and diversity, we need to jump into the wagon. There is a lot of money to make here. Even if we have no idea what this is all about we need to jump in. I think that is very clear that that is something that also happen.
NEIL:
Yeah. Again, I agree that there is an element of opportunism and I you know, it's kind of understandable. You always get opportunists, but, at the same time, again, let's again, take the positives. A lot of people have found new opportunities to work in a way that they weren't able to work before. Companies have changed their attitudes significantly and I think that as companies become more attuned to this and as initiatives like the ones we have been talking about come to pass and come to be things that get rated there will be an incentive for businesses to get competent in this. Not just competent in accessibility but competent in understanding what it means and competent in being able to spot the charlatans. So, long term I am pretty optimistic. I think we are at a significant inflection point. And also, when we are looking at what is happening with the messages around decarbonisation and sustainability, there is an increasing rigor around that because, especially in Europe, there is now a taxonomy requirement, which means that you can't just green wash and we need you know, you can't do disability washing either because what we need is that same kind of taxonomy and it's going to take time. It's going to take us time to create that taxonomy, create that understanding of all of the moving parts, but it's doable. You know, if we again follow the sustainability path. Follow the same kind of approach. We can do this and we can build that taxonomy, we can build that rigor and we can start meaningfully holding organisations to account.
DEBRA:
Meaningfully. Meaningfully, yes. Just not making the corporate brands the enemies, which sometimes we do but actually working to make sure we are all included. So, I am also hopeful but we do have a lot of work to do. So, thank you for this conversation, Neil and Antonio.
NEIL:
Thank you.
DEBRA:
And we need to thank our wonderful supporters too.
NEIL:
Absolutely so, thank you very much to MyClearText for keeping us captioned and accessible and thank you to Amazon for also supporting us to stay on air and be sustainable. Thank you.