AXSChat with Michał T. Tomczak, Assistant Professor at the Faculty of Management and Economics, Gdańsk University of Technology

 Dr. Tomczak is an Assistant Professor at the Faculty of Management and Economics, Gdańsk University of Technology in Poland, and a visiting scholar at the University of North Texas, College of Health and Public Service.

As the first Polish researcher in the field of management to conduct research on neurodiversity and work, Dr. Tomczak is a leading expert in Human Resources Management. He has authored and co-authored over 50 publications in the field, focusing on technology-based and non-technological solutions for the inclusion and well-being of employees with autism and the assessment of employee competencies.

As a Principal Investigator and co-investigator of several projects funded by the National Science Center (NCN) and the National Centre for Research and Development (NCBiR), Dr. Tomczak has developed a set of innovative solutions for employers, aimed at improving Human Resources Management processes and optimizing the work environment in terms of the needs of people with autism.

Join us on the podcast to hear Dr. Tomczak's valuable insights on neurodiversity and work, and how businesses can create a more inclusive and supportive work environment for all employees.

Transcript

0:00

This is a draft transcript produced live at the event and corrected for spelling and basic errors. It is not a commercial transcript. AXSCHAT Michal Tomczak

NEIL: 0:05

Hello, and welcome to Axschat. I'm delighted we are joined today by Michal who is a professor at the University of Gdansk, who is specialising at looking at neurodiversity at work. I think this is particularly interesting, Debra and I, particularly, being neurodivergent, have an interest in the topic anyway but also it's really interesting to see it from a non-Anglophone perspective, which is why I was interested to talk with Michal and find out more about his work. So, Michal if you'd like to explain a little bit about who you are, what you do and how you came to be working in this field, that would be great.

MICHAL: 0:40

Okay, thank for the invitation. It's a great pleasure for me to have opportunity to talk to you today. So, as Neil said, I am PhD in software sciences and I work as an Assistant Professor in a technical university in Gdansk, but my faculty is management and economics. So, my daily teaching is human resources management. And, for last five years, I was focusing on neurodiversity at work. So, I think what is important, in Poland, I think now, we are in the same place where United States, UK or Australia, was about maybe ten or 15 years ago. So, I think Poland is in early stage of building a neurodiversity awareness, at the time, five years ago, I was the first scholar, from the field of management, who was interested in neurodiversity and work. So, now, there are only two peoples from my field of science, exploring this important issue but, the number of papers of research grants is growing and growing. So, I hope that the awareness will also grow.

NEIL: 2:33

Excellent. So, I'm really interested to know how you came to be interested in the topic. If you're doing human resources management and you're thinking about organisational effectiveness, what was it that drew you to the idea that you could improve organisational effectiveness by better understanding neurodiversity and neurodivergence.

MICHAL: 3:01

I think it's not a very interesting story, it was by chance, it was a coincidence, because my great friend, and she is professor of optoelectronics. So, she is working on developing sensors, measuring human body parameters. And she was awarded by a grant, which was aimed to develop a stress measurement system for kids on the spectrum. And, they needed someone from the social sciences. So, she said, oh come on Michal, join us. And, it was the first time I involved with autistic community. The grant was successful. The system was created. Now, it's still working in one of the special education school and it is composed of a wrist worn device, which is measuring pulse, temperature and skin contacts. So, multi parameters which are internally detecting stress increase, stress level increase and then, it can support, the therapy of pupils, in the school. But, at that time, four or five years ago, I thought most of the interventions are in Poland, are tailored for the school kids or young adults. There is nothing, no solution for the adults, for the working adults. So, I thought, it can be a great opportunity to do something which is innovative for a Polish scale and something which is socially important. I was lacking, you know in my research life, I was lacking something which make me feel that I do something which is important for the community for the society. Before, I was, you know, I was involved in measuring and assessing the, you know, the employees competencies and so on and so on. And I did it and, it was not you know, it was I did not have -- I was not satisfied. And when I found this issue which was extremely important, extremely interesting for me, I just thought, wow, it's something which can be developed and it could be really helpful for the community. So, it's what, it was some kind of like, I am missing the word, maybe some breakdown in my professional life. So, I'm very happy. It was not intentional, but, I crossed this was, this issue and since then I am involved in adopting.

NEIL: 6:47

I think that if you're of a certain age, then most people who are involved in accessibility and neurodiversity topics have fallen into it rather than intentionally chosen it as a career. But once you get involved in the topic, you have a purpose to the work that you're doing. It feels good. And there is no going back. No matter how frustrated I think that we sometimes get, working in the field, it's very rare that you see people leaving the field of accessibility disability inclusion, neurodiversity because when you do the work and it's successful, it feels good. So, I am really glad you joined the profession, you found the passion and I am sure Debra has a question.

DEBRA: 7:48

Yes. And, the thing that I love about what you're doing is you're following your purpose and, I know that sometimes we use those words, you know, it's sort of nice and everything. But I actually think it's a very important for us to follow the purpose of why we are here. So, I really appreciate that. And I also, I think this continues to be a very complicated conversation when we are talking about neurodiversity. I remember, I was talking to a, somebody who represents a very large multinational brand in the States and I made a comment to her that I felt that there needed to be more effort focused on people with visible disabilities, in this particular conversation, I was having with her. And she said, what are you saying? Are you saying for example, people with ADHD, which Neil and I both have, people that are neurodiverse, you think they've been meaningfully included in the workforce? And I said, I well, I believe we have been in the workforce. I do not agree we have been meaningfully included or even that the skills that we bring to the table because we are neurodiverse, have been valued like they should with brands. I think there are things happening. I think the work that you're doing is certainly impactful. But at the seem time, I believe that those of us that are neurodiverse tried to hide our neurodiversity because we knew it wasn't necessarily welcome in the workforce. And so, I'll just give you an example. Ever since I was a little girl, I got yelled at by talking too much, Debra go and sit down and yeah, and I still have sort of that problem too except now that's what I get to do for a living. I get to ask people questions and stuff. So, is it really a disadvantage? So, I think the work that you're doing and the work that Dr Nancy Doyle and her group does, which I think is very important, I think that it's important because we are talk taking a look at who we are and how we have treated individuals and, really trying to determine does that really make sense, is this the right thing for you the individual and you society, which I don't think is true. So, I think, more, we need more work like what you're doing. We need more of this because I think right now, maybe we have to be more deliberate about digging into our lived experiences and who we are so, that we can step back and say wait a minute. So, what you're saying to me is you're a human being and you want to have access to all technology. You have access to be included in the workforce. You have access to education and it will be accommodated and fully accessible for you human being. But how do we really, really do that? And so, it feels to me that's what you're exploring and I'm with Neil in that I appreciate you're exploring it from the lens of being in Poland as opposed to always only exploring it from the UK perspective or US perspective, which by the way, is the most important perspective in the world. Just kidding. So, I saw you shaking your head in agreement with me a little bit Michal, but, are you finding that to be the case. Because I think employers are extremely confused about how to meaningfully include people with neurodiversity in the workforce and ongoing in the workforce as well, from a retention, from a promotion. I will say one more thing, I've always been, sorry Neil, but I've always been a little fascinated with how ATOS is supporting Neil, in his very diverse team and, just looking from the outside, from many years of being a professional colleague with Neil, I am fascinated with how they have responded to him and what they have let him to do to really have, provide major impact for them but I don't see that happening in other places. So, let me turn it over to you Michal?

MICHAL: 12:00

I fully agree that we can take the routine, which is daily routine, in companies in US or in UK, as a good benchmark. As far as I know, the examples of companies who implemented successful recruitment programmes for neurodivergent community are only the companies with western capital. Like, I am cooperating with EY. They have you know, I forgot the name, but it's run by you know, Hiran Shukla. In EY, in United States, they have neurodiversity Centre of Excellence. And now, one of the branch is kind of operating in Poland. And, they are recruiting people, autistic people. There was also such a programme in Proctor & Gambel, which also you know, a branch of a global company. Now, I've heard ATOS is also preparing to implement some programme in Poland. And I don't know if you can confirm that?

NEIL: 13:31

So, I do think it is interesting that it is coming from large multi-nationals. I hope that what will happen is that this practice gets shared amongst the nationally based organisations. And I know that Poland is a centre, where there is highly educated population and lots of multi-nationals have, nearshore centres in Poland. ATOS has significant numbers of people in Bydgoszcz and Wroclaw and, as a result we are trying to have consistency, not just in Poland but also doing this in all of the geographies we operate in trying to give a similar kind of experience for people around the globe. And I have been lucky. I think that I've been lucky with who I work for and the managers I've worked with and the support I've got. I've also advocated for myself. So, I think there's an element of self-advocacy that has driven policy and that has helped me and what I'm hoping to do is open the doors for those behind me. So that it's easier. And, I think that I'm very keen to see this spread from large multi nationals to being something that is broadly adopted, generally. And, so whilst we go necessarily have a Centre of Excellence, because I am less keen on keeping stuff segmented and much more interested in actually making sure that we are an employer that can support people with neurodivergent conditions in whatever role they want to be in. I do think that it's really useful to see that the spread of good practice coming out from different organisations and, I wonder what you think will, it will do? What will it take for that to start being adopted in your local organisations and local management practices?

MICHAL: 15:49

It's not an easy question. Probably, I can, I just can't provide you know, an answer and say, how long it will take. But I can also, I can say the most important is to work on increasing that level of awareness, on different levels. In society, in companies, but we also have something which is quite unusual. Last year we opened the postgraduate programme, Neurodiversity at Work. And Denis Idol [unclear] was a keynote speaker at our ceremonial inauguration. To be honest, I'm not sure if it's not the first such a programme in Europe. I don't know, maybe in the world. Maybe it's too big word. But, I didn't heard about any programme tailored, I'm talking about the university programme, tailored for this issue. So, I think it's a huge step on the way to increase awareness in Poland. I believe, our students, our graduates, it's a group of 25 people. There will be some kind of ambassadors in their communities, in their companies to spread the word. And now, we started the programme in commercial and next, this year we'll start another programme in Krakov. So, I hope there will be more and more students and more and more graduates.

DEBRA: 17:40

Yes, and Michal, I know that, I just want to make a quick comment and then turn it over to Antonio because he's got a question. I just want to validate something you were saying about the corporations doing these things in the US and the UK and one thing that I felt like I know that I've felt like been nagging corporate brands about is, you have to be employing people with disabilities in your entire geo footprint. If you're only doing in the United States and the UK. You know, we are going to question what you're real commitment to our community is. So, I just want, to any corporate brands that are listening, any employers that are out there. We continue to say the same thing, if you are not including, you know, your employees from Poland. We have a problem with that. If you're not including your employees or making sure you have diverse employees with disabilities from Portugal, just using two of the countries that we have represented here. We are noticing that and with some of the recent things coming out in the media where we're really digging into, are we doing the right thing, are corporations really doing the right thing by this community and other communities? I think it's more important than ever before for corporate brands and employers to understand. This is the entire geo footprint. So, if you're not working in Poland, you need to reach out to Michal and figure out how to do it because we are watching. I just want to say, we are watching your corporations and we are tired of it. We're tired of it. Antonio over to you.

ANTONIO: 19:10

Thank you, Debra. I wanted to talk about the changes that are taking place at the workplace and we know that everyone, we are all, many organisations experience remote for the first time, during the pandemic and now we are in a period where there is a kind of a pressure from some organisations to bring everyone back to the office, ignoring the lessons and sometimes driven by us, in favour of the office. So, what I would like to know Michal, from your studies, what are the things that you have seen that actually consolidate remote work and it's a good practice, not only for neurodiverse individuals but for everyone in general?

MICHAL: 20:09

I think, there is no way back to this situation before the pandemic because, most of employees, especially the younger generation, if they were told, you have to go back to the office to work in a stationary form, they will just say, thank you bye, bye. And, some industries, like IT especially, we have huge talent shortage. So, every company that I know in Poland is extremely flexible. They can agree for full time remote work, some hybrid solutions. For example, one in two weeks, we meet one day in an office to, you know to be with some, to do some type in building. But I think in my opinion there is no way to force people to work the old way. Maybe I, like people, I came to my office every day. I am not a very you know hybrid work fan. But I think most of my colleagues that they prefer such a form. And in IT industry which is most familiar with, it's a rule. My wife, she is a manager in IT Department of aviation company and after the COVID, she made an employee opinion survey and 90% of you know, the guys who write the codes, software engineers, they said if you want us to come back to the office, we will quit. So, it's just reality. And, but some of my interviewees, during my research, especially people on the autism spectrum, they highly preferred the remote mode because, I have a friend who when she told me that she lives in Warsaw. And she is HR specialist in a huge company and she told me that her way to the office, which took her about an hour and a half, by public transport was so overwhelming, so exhausting it that the COVID was something great for her and, I think it well stay forever.

ANTONIO: 23:20

Do you feel that you know that sometimes people might say, it can be very expensive to accommodate people? What is your take on that?

MICHAL: 23:31

To accommodate to a hybrid remote working?

ANTONIO: 23:36

Yes, yes.

MICHAL: 23:40

I think it's a matter of good work organisation because, it's not easy you know to maintain identification with your employer, when you are not in the office every day. It's more challenging to maintain you know, team work and, also there are some problems with some challenges. With, for example organisation of work with setting priorities, but there are some tools that we can use. For example, applications that they, in hand or some work that organisers. So, I think it's not a huge cost for a company to accommodate, that first things.

NEIL: 24:48

I think it's really interesting, I have and Antonio as well, worked remotely for a very long time, well before COVID. And Axschat is a testimony to you know, remote partnerships being possible because, we were totally remote and never met each other in person for several years, you know and did Axschat and we melt in Stockholm a few years and that was the first time we all met together. So, it is possible. At the same time, I'm a sociable being and I like to talk with people all the time and enjoy social interaction and physical interaction. But I think when I go into the office, I'm actually getting less done. It's just different stuff. So, I think that if you really want to do hybrid well, it takes some planning. And you have to accept to you are not going to do the same things in the office that you would have done before. You are going in the office to meet people, share ideas and sort of feed your soul, if you like, rather than to go in and do busy work and do email and there is no point, in me being in the office to be on a Team's call with people in Germany and Spain and the US. I can do that from home without the two hours of traveling.

MICHAL: 26:16

Yes.

NEIL: 26:18

There is a point in me being there, to have a live conversation, to be able to share ideas and look someone in the eye in the way you can't do properly on a video call and, you know, so, I do think that there are benefits but forcing people to do this stuff, just for the sake of the fact that you've spent a load of money on real-estate to me seems counterproductive. And I agree also about the cost of accommodations, you know. The cost of much the of the software, is less than a day or two of someone's time, you know. So, if you give them the software and they are productive, it pays for itself within a week or so. Why wouldn't you do it? Why wouldn't you want someone to be productive. So, I think even the basic of economics, make it add up pretty quickly, to say that you can't afford it, actually what you're saying is you don't want to pay for something and you would rather someone being ineffective and not be productive. It seems strange to me to take that kind of attitude. So, I think that once people understand that it pays for itself then it becomes easier to argue the, you know, argue the case for it, to do it systemically.

MICHAL: 27:51

Yes, and also, remote work can, lead to huge savings for example, for the office space. I know company, from Gdansk, before the pandemic, they used three huge buildings and now, they use only one building because two thirds of the staff is working remotely. So, there are huge savings on office space rental, energy and everything. So, I think the investment in software which facilitates you know remote working is way smaller than you the savings of maintenance of regular offices.

NEIL: 28:39

Yes, I think so. I think that saving money on heating and lighting and that cost is going to be significant, but, it's offset to a certain extent by not have having to commute and you it used to be more than offset by not having to compute. That the cost of heating your property these days, however is lot more than the cost of commuting. So, that's shifted somewhat. But I still think that the benefits of flexibility and for people to work in the ways that best suit them, have huge benefits for organisations as a whole. So, we've reach the end of our half an hour. It's been a great pleasure talking with you and hearing about the work you're doing. I'm very interested to see how we might do stuff together and look at what we can do and sharing best practice. I need to also thank Amazon and MyClearText for helping keep us on air and keeping us captioned and accessible and I really look forward to you joining us on Twitter for our Q and A.

MICHAL: 29:48

Thank you very much for invitation. It was an honour for me to join such a great respected group as yours.

NEIL: 29:59

Thank you.

DEBRA: 30:00

And your English was amazing.

MICHAL: 30:03

No, I --

DEBRA: 30:04

Yes, yes, yes.

MICHAL: 30:06

My English because, since last two years, I have no has classes in English and I'm really angry about this. There were some shifts in our programmes and I want to introduce my English course again because I have to practice every day.

ANTONIO: 30:27

Okay, thank you, Michal.

DEBRA: 30:30

We'll practice with you every day. Thanks everyone.

MICHAL: 30:34

Yes, thank you.