Empowering Inclusion: How Active Listening and Diversity Drive Success

Do you ever feel like companies and organizations are only giving lip service to their commitment to inclusion? Join us as we dive into an enlightening conversation with Dr Anthony Giannoumis, founder of Inclusive Creation, to uncover the crucial importance of transforming inclusion promises into tangible action. We discuss the powerful impact language can have on fostering creativity and performance and the mission statements' essential role in promoting inclusion practices.

In a stimulating dialogue with hosts Neil, Debra and Antonio, we reveal the significance of active listening and validation in cultivating a trusting and inclusive atmosphere. Neil shares his insights on the transformative power of exchanging vulnerability for validation and its role in building strong, cohesive teams.

Lastly, Anthony Giannoumis shares his invaluable expertise on the necessity of diverse perspectives in entrepreneurship and technology. We explore how diversity and inclusion hiring should not be solely about qualifications but also about the unique perspective each individual brings. As we delve into data connectivity challenges in certain parts of Africa and their effects on assistive tech delivery, Dr Giannoumis imparts key lessons he's learned throughout his entrepreneurial and consultative work. Don't miss out on this engaging episode!

Chapters

• 0:01 Inclusive Creation and Anti-Exclusion
• 9:39 Inclusive Leadership and Active Listening
• 21:35 Inclusion in Entrepreneurship and Tech
• 28:14 Printer Technology Frustration and Business Models

Transcript

Speaker 1: 0:01

Hello Anne, welcome to AccessChat. We're really delighted to welcome back to AccessChat Dr Anthony Giamnumis, who is joining us from Oslo today. Anthony, great to have you back. For those who didn't watch the first time you came around, and shame on them. Can you tell us a bit about what you're doing and why you're doing what you do in Oslo?

Speaker 2: 0:27

Sure, we have so much to catch up on. When I was here last time, i was fully embedded in the academic system. Since then I've taken to new horizons and started a new company a couple of years ago called Inclusive Creation. You can find us at inclusivecreationcom. We're doing work, trying to put inclusion into practice. We say it's about putting inclusion promises into practices.

Speaker 1: 0:57

Excellent. Who's making the promises? What are you practicing?

Speaker 2: 1:06

We know the likely culprits that are out there all the corporates and even the government agencies that love to talk about how important inclusion is and then finding ways to help them to find solutions, to putting those ideals into a tangible process, to a tangible product development process, to a tangible hiring process, to a tangible mission statement, even being able to put out an inclusive mission statement that people in the organization can look to as a guiding light.

Speaker 1: 1:47

That's great. It's based upon your experience in academia and research and working with people with disabilities, plus your previous experience of entrepreneurship, to help these organizations build products and services that hopefully don't exclude people. I like the idea of the mission statement work. I think that that's something that a lot of organizations say we need to have a mission statement and then write something that is somewhat like word suit, problematic, yeah, or just really not well understood or well defined. So do you have a formula or how do you approach writing a mission statement around inclusion?

Speaker 2: 2:39

Well, the number one thing is it's contextual and it's locally generated. So what we have to think about is the kinds of language we're using and whether or not that language is not just inclusive but, i would say, like anti-excluding. I think we need to move beyond just thinking about inclusion as like that's where we stop And I think we need to move into a period where we're thinking about how we can be anti-excluding And I think that can be part of mission statements. But just to kind of contextualize a little bit of the value and benefits here, if you take two separate teams, so the science shows two separate teams, one outperforms the other. If we look at the difference there, just using inclusive language, just if that manager uses inclusive language, the difference in performance is 20% And the difference in creativity is 10%. So we're talking about significant boons to your team, to your industry, if you're just using inclusive language on a team level, let alone on an organizational level, let alone on that level of mission statements and the like to the program.

Speaker 3: 3:50

Um, anthony, thanks for coming back on the program. Do you mind? expanding or inclusion means so much, just in to, it's such a big word. And so, um, and certainly I would venture to say that the community of LGBTQ I, a, they, they first started using the word inclusion. Very, you know, i think that's a really important part of a question.

Speaker 2: 4:18

I don't know if I understand that, but what are you talking about?

Speaker 2: 4:23

when you're talking about the word inclusion, i think the number one thing that comes to mind is creating space for others to have a significant voice in the decision making that happens within an organization, and a lot of times I cheekily say it takes people like me who are in the community of LGBTQ. I think that's a very important thing to do in order to have a big voice that doesn't shut down. And that is all about creating that space, and it's also about decentering the, the focus from those individuals in those positions of power and authority and in decentering them, in decentering focus into somebody else's perspective and vision and way of thinking. And I think this is what a lot of people think about, and we've all been in these situations where your boss is like we're bringing on, on, on, on on on about whatever it is and not creating space for others, and so we need leadership that's conscious of these things and are able to feel the motivation to bring in new voices into the decision making process.

Speaker 4: 5:35

Thank you, anthony. What? no, we had people from government from Norway within access chat And we know that they have a quite unique structure comparative with other government governments. Was the fact that you are based in Norway helped with that? that it's everybody will understand what you are aiming, or you also have the intention to expand to other regions in Europe or to other regions around the world?

Speaker 2: 6:06

I think it's really a combination. I mean, my journey as an immigrant started two generations ago, so my grandparents were immigrants from Greece to the United States And I took up that same journey and came from the United States to Norway. And I've been lucky enough, i've been privileged enough to be able to work in a lot of different socio-economic environments, from China to Mozambique to Uganda and all throughout Europe, and so I've really had a lot of opportunities to expand my way of thinking, and the more more I've worked in this field, the more more I realized there are maybe it sounds strange to call it superficial level things, but it is kind of superficial to just say that we as leaders just need to shut up so that others don't shut down. It's a very, very basic concept, basic approach. So I won't say that it's necessarily drawn out of my experience here living in Norway, but certainly that applies to it. It's drawn from my experience as a person with a disability and someone who's kind of been working in with advocates and advocacy since I was a teenager.

Speaker 2: 7:14

So it goes back to when I was in high school and I was taking a health education class and I was sitting in class and my teachers talking about HIV AIDS. This was during the HIV AIDS pandemic that started in the 90s, and my teacher was vilifying gay men in the process of her teaching us about HIV AIDS and was basically saying that there's no way to have safe sex in a gay relationship. And something just hit me wrong about that statement. It just kind of struck me as a teenager and I'm sitting in my seat and I'm thinking there's just, it's not right, like there's got to be something wrong here, because this is not about people, you know, this is about the way society sees issues. And so I raised my hand and I said, hey, i don't think there's anything wrong with being gay, and I lived in a very conservative, very rural area in the United States and so, of course, after making that statement and taking that stand in my class, it earned me bullying for the next three years of my high school career.

Speaker 2: 8:21

And so having that experience going into college and sitting in a sociology class and sitting next to an African American friend of mine and learning about socioeconomic disparities and hearing from the teacher that there were issues around underserved and underprivileged populations, and looking at my friend and kind of checking in with them and saying, is this legit Is? this is the teacher just, you know, a bunch of non-sensors. Is this an actual experience that you've had? and he looks back at me and just nods Yeah, absolutely, this is totally legit issues. So I think that that was the start of a journey that took me here to Norway now, and if I can say anything about life here in Norway, it is that there is a kind of population level reverence and respect for human rights and, in a lot of cases, a respect for diversity. It's not to say that we don't have our own challenges. We certainly do But I always like to say you know, there's a great opportunity here for the world to see some new ways of thinking around diversity and inclusion here in the Norway. I agree.

Speaker 4: 9:35

Thank you.

Speaker 1: 9:39

So I think that there's a fascinating insight and I think that the whole sort of shutting up to stop people shutting down is a great phrase we might have to steal that one, but I do think that leaders really need to listen, and they do well by listening, because that's where they start to learn and to really be able to understand what they need to do with their power and influence. because they have the power and influence, but if they don't listen, then they're not really understanding how they need to apply it in order to not exclude people, as you would say.

Speaker 2: 10:31

Absolutely absolutely.

Speaker 3: 10:34

But how do you really do that, though? How do you do that, neil? How do you really listen?

Speaker 1: 10:42

So, firstly, you don't interrupt people, don't you? Sorry I pulled you out on that one And then, secondly, actually you need to check that what you've heard is actually what the person has said. And so we got taught when I was doing my MBA in the Cretaceous period some way back, about active listening, and that was to really repeat back what you think you've heard and learned from someone. So I think what you're saying is that and that gives the person the chance to say actually no, i didn't really mean that, actually what?

Speaker 1: 11:24

I remember is this thing, so that you really get that dialogue and that understanding. and I think that quite often we superficially listen and we invite people to say something and we cut across them. Yeah yeah, great, yeah, of course. Yeah, I'm going to do that. And then we don't really hear what they're saying, what they're telling us. We hear what we want to hear or think that they want to tell us. So we have this confirmation bias going on in our heads.

Speaker 1: 11:59

So I think that's part of it, But so how do you address when you're doing your research or you're working with these? how do you address that?

Speaker 2: 12:08

confirmation bias that we often have. I think the way I've approached it is in building trust in the teams that I'm working in. I think this is where we can find ways out of our unconscious bias, find solutions to our unconscious bias, because a lot of times, if there's a power difference, whether it's perceived or not, if there's a power difference, the person who's in the position, who's underpowered will say, is less likely to bring the truth to the table. So, especially when you're in teams, and when you're in teams especially that are trying to be innovative, the likely scenario the psychology science shows that the likely scenario is that each individual member is only going to reveal things that they think the whole team already knows. They're less likely to reveal their own personal kind of unique perspectives, and so you need to build that trust within the team. And when I talk about building trust with my students or in my keynote on inclusive leadership, the phrase that I use is exchanging vulnerability for validation. It's all about exchanging vulnerability for validation And that gets into exactly what you were saying, neil when you can validate somebody else's experience and not invalidate it by assuming you know what they're saying, speaking over them or actively trying to put them into their little place. That's the mark of truly inclusive leadership and that's the mark of someone who can create space for others, and in doing so, you get the double bonus of building trust and rapport. In the triple bonus, they're more likely to bring unique perspectives, and even perspectives that they think you may not want to hear, which, as a leader, is the most valuable thing you can hear.

Speaker 2: 14:02

If you'll behoove me, i'm going to tell a really quick story about my early academic career. When I was first teaching, i realized within the first year I was teaching that I'm a terrible teacher. And it came to me after first semester, towards the end of the semester, and a student comes marching down to the front of the room with a big notepad And she says I made a list of all the things you did wrong today And, of course, as a professor, you're sitting there. No, no, no, i'm the authority in the room. I know everything about this topic. That's why I'm standing in the front of the room. And so I say well, let's have a chat, let's go back to my office, and so we're sitting down and she's just pointing out this flaw and that flaw and that flaw, and I just feel each one of those as like knives going into my body And the sting of her words is just ingrained on my memory. And it was only because a car honked outside my car window that I kind of snapped out of my days.

Speaker 2: 15:00

And I look over at her and I realize that this student her name was Katie. I realized that Katie is a revolutionary. She's not somebody who's satisfied with the status quo. She sees that as her life's mission to call out truth to power. And so, with that knowledge, i tried to kind of switch gears, because I realized there was a path ahead of me that I could choose. I could shut Katie down, i could tell her that she doesn't know what she's talking about I'm the professor, She's the student, know who you're a place. Or I could shut up and listen. And I was so grateful that I had to wear with all to actually take that second path and shut up and listen to her.

Speaker 2: 15:43

And a few years later her and I started working together. We went on to apply for funding from the European Union to create a network of 24 countries focused in on advocacy at the grassroots level for gender inclusive innovation, and we won 1.7 million euros from the EU for our proposal. So if I hadn't taken that path, if I had just tried to put her down, it would have done nothing for me. It would have done. It would have floated my ego very briefly, but, more importantly, it would have told her that her experience isn't valid. It would have told her that I'm not looking. I wouldn't want to have a connection or a partnership with someone like her, and it would have severed any chances that we would have had in the future of working together. And so I'm very grateful that I was at least switched on enough in my head to know when it's time for me to shut up, so that they don't shut down.

Speaker 3: 16:46

Wow, that's such a powerful story. I'm curious. I really think we need to rethink everything that we're doing in society, and I believe that is what's happening. And one thing that I worry about and I know other leaders worry about that as well but we tell corporations, brands, entities you better include all of us, include all of us. We want you to include all of the diverse groups And, by the way, you better make my group a priority Women rock, we're the best, and women with disabilities are even better.

Speaker 3: 17:23

So I think, often the entities that are trying to make sure that we're included are often confused because of the changing demands and changing appetite of society. I would say, and so I believe that we can't. I believe we had to be very deliberate about doing that stuff. This morning, i noticed, when I joined it did not hold my name, and I just didn't take the time to add Debra Roo, she, her hers, and the reason why I add she, her hers, is as a nod to the identity movement where we're trying to decide who we are as human beings. So I just wonder, though, as we progress as society? this is something I've been thinking about, so I'm glad I can ask you this question As we try to progress and evolve and adapt to society, to do a better job of including all human beings in whatever way is most empowering for them. I just wonder if the days of us being so deliberate about every single bit of our identity which we're still not there yet I think we need to continue to walk that.

Speaker 3: 18:32

If we can by using the direction you are going in let's make sure we're including everyone at these levels. Could that be, could that be part of truly the way to go forward? Because, as I'm thinking myself about these problems and I'm being asked my opinion of how we solve these problems, i really wanted to be very thoughtful about that And, as you were talking and I see the questions, especially some of the things Neil was saying- I think it's.

Speaker 3: 19:03

I just wonder if what you're saying is part of the way forward. So I just thought I'd start there and you go.

Speaker 2: 19:11

So I'll have to tell another story here. So I've been lucky enough to lead a company in Kampala, uganda, for the past few years. It was, unfortunately, i went out of business during COVID, just couldn't survive that period. But when I was still working there, i went. I was invited to speak at a conference called Power the Next, which is all about empowering the next generation of entrepreneurs.

Speaker 2: 19:37

And so I'm sitting there backstage and looking out at an audience of hundreds of Ugandans, a lot of young people there in the audience, And the person who is supposed to be going up before me and kind of leading the next part of the keynote was just one of these people that when they're on stage, it's just you can't not pay attention to them. Every word out of his mouth was like poetry And I'm sitting backstage thinking. This was when I was working as an academic, thinking I'm going to be presenting my research after this person, and it felt very, very intimidating. I was literally shaking there backstage and wanted to just cry and go back to my hotel because everything he was saying was getting the crowd whipped up into a frenzy. And I'm looking out and I see tears start to run down people's cheeks because he's talking about the African diaspora and how we need to reconnect to our roots and how we need to find ways of bringing that culture to the front of international society, and people are clapping spontaneously Every few words that will come out of his mouth. The whole audience just starts cheering. And now my intimidation is reaching an all time peak. My anxiety is just completely overwhelming me, and so, in a kind of knee-jerk reaction, i looked to the guy next to me who was working in tech and I kind of nudge him and I'm like who is this person on stage? Why did you put them before an academic? This is a nightmare. And he says oh well, this is Uganda's most popular hip hop artist, a man named Babaluku. He actually revolutionized the hip hop industry in Uganda. And so I'm like, ok, well, this is probably not going to be an easy task for me to go out there and sway that audience from that emotional pitch to now we're going to talk about my research in the science I've created over the last few years.

Speaker 2: 21:35

Now I was very fortunate that whenever I went out, they actually flipped up the program a little bit and put me on a panel presentation instead of a keynote, and it was much to my relief. So I was out there with a few entrepreneurs and we were talking about entrepreneurship and things like that, and so I'm at this point finished, i'm exhausted emotionally and I'm walking off stage just thinking well, this was an interesting experience, i learned a lot, but I don't know that I necessarily brought the value that they were hoping I would bring. And I'm walking out and I see an older man next to the door And he kind of looks at me in the eye, catches my eye and he kind of grabs my arm as I was leaving And he says Anthony, i just want to thank you for being here today. He said a lot of times in Uganda we get a lot of perspectives from other Ugandans, we get a lot of perspectives from our local and national communities, but we don't always get international perspectives on how our people are empowered and how they can be the leaders around the world. Because that was one of my primary messages was that we in the global North have a lot to learn from the work that's being going on in the global South.

Speaker 2: 22:47

And it was a very powerful moment for me because I realized that there was value for me to give in that audience and a lot of that value came out of my unique perspective, taken into account the entire audience in that room, and so I think that's where we need to have our mindset when we're looking at these issues of diversity and inclusion. We need to think when we're hiring, not who has the right qualifications, who's the good fit. That's important. We need to make sure that people are coming into positions qualified to execute on those positions. It's absolutely essential. But it's also essential that they're a good ad, that they're a good addition to that team. They're bringing new perspectives. Because of their life experience, because of their lived experience, because of the way that they've grown up and the journey that they've taken in the world. They're able to bring new, different nuances to whether it's product development or again going back to leadership or any other part of the business. A good fit and a good ad.

Speaker 1: 23:55

So we often see the problem of homogeneity in tech, because people recruit for team fit and they recruit like them. It's like I'll bring in my friends or someone that's like me. I feel comfortable, and I think that they say that diverse teams, there is more tension, but that's where your creativity hits. It's that friction that generates the heat, that generates the ideas. And so, yes, we need to absolutely recruit for competence, because we shouldn't be giving people jobs to tick boxes, but at the same time, we really don't want to be making an assumption that because someone is like us and because they get on well, they're the best candidates. So we were lucky enough in the last week to have Betty O'Gill, also from Uganda, so we're getting the Ugandan perspective And I think that cross-pollination of experience and ideas is really crucial to expanding the way that we look at and define inclusion.

Speaker 1: 25:10

And I think that we did some work over the last few years with GIZ, the German Overseas Development Corporation, where we've had the inclusion.

Speaker 1: 25:19

We've done it in India, we've done it in Africa And for me it was really worthwhile learning because your assumptions are challenged as to what works in the context of that country and that culture And also Africa is not homogenous at all. It's the same as urban America and the boomies where Deborah is. So data and connectivity can be a problem in Africa, and certainly in parts, and that impacts the kind of assistive tech solutions that you might deliver, because you don't necessarily want to go cloud first. Sometimes it's not connectivity, sometimes it's cost, because the infrastructure there but the pricing structure is too prohibitive. So I think that it's understanding all of those things which you can only do when you're in the middle of the world in dialogue with people listen That help you understand that you might need to design something different. So when we were sort of looking at the ideas coming in, some of them are superficially quite similar to stuff that's already been done in the global north.

Speaker 4: 26:43

But when?

Speaker 1: 26:43

you start digging down, you see there are subtle differences and there are things that make it work in the cultural context of that country or that region, that give it validity. And some of those were languages, because they were doing text to speech and maths text to speech in African languages rather than the typical English, spanish, french, german, which gave it validity in itself because the mainstream tech companies weren't there to do it, or it was because they were finding ways to do stuff, sort of hacking the system and keeping it cheap and affordable, therefore available and accessible to more people. So I'm fully with you. I think it's really important to sort of dive in and learn these lessons through dialogue, given that you're doing all of this and you're having all of that dialogue. You're pretty good at telling stories, so I'd love one more before we close. Absolutely, what's the sort of thing you've learned most from over the last couple of years, since you've sort of made the move back into doing more sort of consultative and entrepreneurial work?

Speaker 2: 28:02

Absolutely. I think it goes into what you're saying about the kind of our stories of daily life and the connections that we want to create. My mom is just like you or I. She's a pretty ordinary person, but she always finds herself in these extraordinary circumstances because of the way a piece of technology is designed. And it's ironic because she always expects technology to just work right out the box, like she just expects it to be fine, even though technology is typically designed by people like me and not like people like her. I'm not saying that that's expectation is unreasonable, i just say it's ironic.

Speaker 2: 28:43

Now, my mom loves her kids, but she loves her grandchildren way more like 10 times as much And so it was a very special day for her to be there at the hospital in the few hours after her grandson was born, and so you can imagine her in that hospital room with my sister-in-law finished giving birth and my brother such a proud father, and that hospital lighting that's just really really bad fluorescent lights. And of course, my mom was really really enthusiastic about getting a picture of that moment, even though everybody was a little bit strung out And it was just the nurse there. So she hands the nurse her iPhone and the way everybody gathers around the new baby And the nurse takes that picture, and I'll tell you what that picture was like a masterpiece level portrait. I don't know how it turned out that way, but it's the kind of picture you put in a frame next to your bed and you look at it at night and you feel that connection to your family, and this was something my mom wanted more than anything to do that night. She was not willing to wait.

Speaker 2: 29:53

Now, in the US, where my mom lives, when you want to do that, you go down to your local technology electronics store and you buy yourself a printer right Now. I don't know if you've had experience using printers, but they are the worst design piece of technology that exists. I say that printers are not universally designed, they're universally maligned, and that's because they never do what we want them to do. So she had no idea what hell was in store for her as she's driving to the store, looking at this aisle with 20,000 printers in it, and each box is shiny, with a beautiful model holding up a spreadsheet that they just printed off, and how happy they are with this piece of technology. Well, i want you to imagine that each one of those printer boxes there's a little monster just silently growling ha ha, ha, ha ha. So she grabs that printer, she takes it, hurries to the register beep, pays for the printer and there that monster is sitting there, ha ha ha. She puts it in the back of her car and she's driving down the street. Ha ha, ha, ha ha.

Speaker 2: 31:03

She gives it home in boxes and you know that plastic-y smell that comes out of a new piece of electronics, that just smells very, very chemically. Well, she pulls it out, that squeaky styrofoam, she plugs it in and immediately there's like 300 prompts that hit her computer screen and it's everything from. You have to download antivirus. You might already have a virus. Here's one million templates that you will never use, but you must have them right now, yes. Finally she finds the install window and there's the selection for language and it's defaulted to British English And, of course, my mom's American.

Speaker 2: 31:37

So she wants to put it in American English, but she accidentally selects Swahili and it immediately goes into Swahili and it immediately goes to the next screen and she's now more confused than you could possibly imagine, having no idea how to put it back. So what do parents always do in this setting? They call their children. So she calls my brother, and my brother is like the Gandalf. if my mom's the Frodo, right, he is her IT guru, he is her IT mentor and he's so kind, he always coaches her through and he tries to give her the feeling of ownership and empowerment to figure it out as they're going along together.

Speaker 2: 32:20

But even he, the man who will go to a yard sale or a secondhand store and buy the junkiest piece of the technology, take it back home and restore it to its former glory, even he cannot figure out how to get this printer installed. Yep. After hours of frustration, my mom's hand is now a claw on her mouse, just clicking every button she can find. She picks the printer up. And now my mom's from the United States, from the southern part of the United States. They are known for their gentility, for their grace, for their politeness and etiquette. She picks that printer up in a fit of rage, with a scream that would shake you in your boots, and smashes it against the wall And it just crumbles a few pieces fall off.

Speaker 2: 33:10

This was not enough. This was not good enough. So she grabs the cords and pulls the printer out into her backyard and she goes back inside to her garage and she gets a gas can with what was like five liters of gas and it goes back outside, pours the entire thing and, without even blinking an eye, poof, lights that whole printer up until it's nothing but black, melted garbage. Now it's easy for us to blame the printer. Right, but the printer, the printer's just a scoundrel. It was just preventing her from doing what she wanted to do print off her picture of her grandson. The printer is just a scapegoat.

Speaker 2: 33:49

It's actually the business models that give rise to a piece of technology like that being put out to market. It's the incentives that those companies have to create profit over creating usability and accessibility for everyone, and this is really important because this is a human rights issue. In this context, it was just for my mom to be able to print off a picture of her grandson. But this is also about your health, your ability to go to work, to get an education, just to enjoy your leisure time, and so it's. The villain here is actually the businesses, the business models, and we have to rethink how we're doing business, because universal design or accessible design is necessary for some, but it's awesome for everyone.

Speaker 1: 34:37

So that really struck a chord with me, because I have behind me a printer that arrived in a box. This is great. It's a brand new printer. I've been through the pain barrier of installing the drivers. I can't use it.

Speaker 1: 34:57

I can hear it back there going. Oh, Because they supply with it special cartridges that are disabled as soon as it's calibrated the ink. So there's ink in them, But you can't use it because it says these are the calibration cartridges. Go out and spend another 100 pounds on ink because we don't want you to use this stuff. It's that predatory business model that you were just talking about. I cannot print. I need to go and spend more money on more cartridges.

Speaker 1: 35:38

And yes, it's not just the business models, but it's the fact that printers are the technology equivalent of cats. You cannot make them do what you ask them to do.

Speaker 3: 35:57

I was wondering where you were going to go with that, but it was useful. Okay, I agree.

Speaker 1: 36:02

They never do what you ask them to do. They'll always do something different and you probably end up with some. I'm glad we allowed this to happen.

Speaker 3: 36:12

I hate my printer too.

Speaker 1: 36:13

It never works, yeah, so yeah, i don't know, one day, when my ink turns up, i will print out the thing that I've been waiting months to print. Thank you, antony. That's been a great way to end the show. It makes us think hard about how we design and how we enable and disable people through the choices we make, both as designers, but also as managers and business people. So great to have you back on the show. We look forward to the discussions we're going to have. I need to thank Amazon and MyClearText for keeping us online and captioned. Thank you everyone. Have a great week.

Speaker 2: 36:56

Thank you, Neil.