The Life-Changing Impact of Assistive Technology: Charlie Danger's Perspective

How can assistive technology transform the lives of people with disabilities? Join us as we chat with Charlie Danger, director of Global Symbols, to explore this fascinating world and its impact on individuals with physical, complex disabilities and cognitive difficulties. From his own experience working with electrical disabilities to the advancements seen across various platforms and features, Charlie sheds light on matching devices to an individual's physical access skills and the incredible progress made in the field.

We also uncover the groundbreaking work of organizations such as the AceCentre, which provides Assistive Technology and Augmentative and Alternative Communication services for people with complex needs, and CENMAC, one of the world's oldest AT organization. Plus, discover how Charlie Danger has collaborated with UNICEF to democratize symbols used in assistive technology, ensuring they are culturally appropriate. This insightful conversation not only delves into the technical side of assistive technology but also highlights the life-changing impact it has on those who rely on it. Don't miss this episode that explores the future of accessibility and the difference it makes in people's lives.

Chapters

• 0:00 Assistive Technology Design Evolution
• 10:49 Advancements in Assistive Technology Organizations
• 24:02 Democratizing Symbols for Assistive Technology

Transcript

Debra Ruh: 0:00

Hello, w elcome everyone to AXSChat. Let me apologize right away. Neil is not with us. He had to do some wifey to-dos, and so he is not with us today. But Antonio and I are here, and we're really excited to talk to Charlie Danger, who is the best name ever. Charlie Danger is actually an occupational therapist. He's an AT technologist, and he's the director of Global Symbols.

Debra Ruh: 0:32

I met Charlie when I went to the ZERO Project and they were highlighting his work and the technology form with his Global Symbols, and they had a lot of really talented people. But, boy, Charlie stood out. He really stood out. You did, Charlie, and so we really want to talk to him about what he's doing with Global Symbols. But we also want to talk to him about the technology because it feels very. It feels like a really good way forward, and he's working with one organization that actually started doing AT in 1968. So it's very interesting how the old is becoming the new and how much all of these changes that we're experiencing are happening. So, Charlie, welcome to the program.

Charlie Danger: 1:17

to be here.

Debra Ruh: 1:19

starting by just telling us a little bit about who you are. You have a very unique background and it was interesting before we got on air as we were asking you questions. It was. It was just sort of hard to pin down exactly who you are. So tell us, tell us a little bit more about who you are, but also, why are you in the field?

Charlie Danger: 1:42

Cool, okay, i'll give you my little starter story, because that sets it in. When I was 18, i think I was I was, i was a little bit worried. I was worried. I was worried about the things that I was going to do. And then I got a job in a, a special school what we call them in the UK in Suffolk, and two, two special schools actually, and they I was working as a computer technician. So my job was to fix broken printers and, you know, upgrade windows, that sort of thing.

Charlie Danger: 2:18

But I noticed in the classrooms that the electrical disabilities were sort of watching cartoons in the corner of the screen and not using the computers that were there, these shiny computers. So I opened up the cupboards and inside I found these sort of switches and rollerballs and joysticks. And then I started looking at the children and young people and thinking I reckon if I dust these things off and, you know, match them to the children and young people, they'll be able to use these computers to play games and have fun and to create some interesting art skills for the children and the young people, participation stuff. So I started doing that and it worked really well. And then I started getting money to order new equipment instead of the old, dusty stuff we had in the cupboards, and it was just wonderful watching these children go from passively sitting watching the same Disney cartoon to actually learning to read and write and play games on the computers. And this was just a kickstarted my passion and I've been at it ever since.

Antonio Santos: 3:21

Okay. So, Charlie, how are you? Last week, Apple launched a brand new device, Vision Pro, one of the first devices that Apple launched and the first product generation that has accessibility built in. Okay, so, when you started working on assistive tech, what progress have you seen now, and how fast do you believe we are moving today?

Charlie Danger: 3:57

Well.

Charlie Danger: 3:58

So when I think of accessibility for my role, it's accessibility for people with physical, complex, quite complex physical disabilities and cognitive difficulties as well.

Charlie Danger: 4:12

It's interesting to see how sort of sporadic it is, i guess. So there are certain platforms that have moved in directions really quickly and have really great accessibility for, say, switch access or access for people with dexterity difficulties, and then there are other platforms that have got other great features and can do amazing things but don't have some of these foundation access options for people with dexterity, for example. So it's weird when you pick up and I'm thinking here Windows, mac, chrome OS, ios and the iPad stuff and the Android when you pick them up, you have to be really careful with your feature matching, because if somebody can't speak clearly or doesn't speak and needs a communication aid, when you look at their physical access skills, you really have to match that to the device, where you have to match the device to their physical access skills, because it's not universal, which is funny because some of these have been baked in some of this software for a decade and yet it's not in other platforms. So that's kind of my feeling where things are at the moment, but it's always getting better.

Debra Ruh: 5:23

But what a really interesting point. I was going to ask you another question about since Antonio went there. That really is a good point and it's like all of them are different and they're going. You know they're looking at it different ways. And I heard all the criticism that Apple got oh that's ridiculous $3,200. But I also was reading it. Actually, before we started I was reading an article about Amanda was talking about it and talking about what happens when you put something out new. That's the first. You know they're always so much more expensive. And then we adopted love.

Debra Ruh: 5:56

It was just interesting listening to these different perspectives and you have a very interesting perspective that you bring to the table, charlie. So I see all kind of efforts being made. I know Dr Greg Vanderheiden, who we've had on before. He is focused on AT As a service. I believe that's AT as a service, and so people do need assistive technology. But what I always found is having a daughter with Down syndrome in that exact same situation you were talking about Charlie just watching cartoons the same one over and over and over and over and over again. But my daughter's very, very, very clever when it comes to technology. So when I started asking the schools to involve her more in assistive technology. They really did not know what I was talking about And I imagine today that's still the case, charlie right? So my goodness, if you have a guy like Charlie there that can dust off the old crap, you know.

Debra Ruh: 6:53

But it feels like it's so hard to make it work. And one thing I would wonder is I'm always saying, when we're talking about this new technology and it's like, by God, can we please make it accessible? We know how It's like. It almost feels like we need to have a whole another way of designing And we have to say, ok, how do we make sure all humans can use this, all humans that we want to use this? it just seems like we need to have an entire design revolution to rethink what it means to really design for humans. Sometimes humans don't see as well, sometimes we can't use our hands as well, sometimes, you know so it just feels like we're. We need some kind of revolution, but I don't Yeah.

Charlie Danger: 7:42

Well, i wouldn't say this was revolution rather than evolution, but having people with disabilities involved in the design process right at the beginning, paid to do that job, is certainly a good start. So there are certain assistive technologies that I use very frequently that we know actually had people with physical disabilities or people who would use that technology, designing it, co-designing it right at the beginning, which means that they're actually really good and really accessible. Other companies that we work closely with will sometimes, once they've designed something, they'll ask for volunteers to sort of test it, to do like beta testing, to see how good it is. Some of those companies will pay and some of them won't pay. I think they should pay.

Debra Ruh: 8:25

I agree. They're big corporations tapping into our knowledge duh.

Charlie Danger: 8:30

Yeah, but yeah, i can really grab certain technologies that I know involved people with disabilities, right at the start and I know that it's going to work much. It's going to be their needs much better, basically, despite not having the same PR budget or advertising budget. So it's quite interesting from that perspective. So I think there's an evolution if we just start by involving the people that are going to use the equipment right at the beginning.

Debra Ruh: 8:56

And we would actually consider a larger amount of people might want to use it than what you're thinking. But there's one more thing and that we also have to make sure, when we're using people with disabilities to do them, that we're being very deliberate about how we're doing it. You can certainly bring in somebody I'll pick on Steve Tyler over it. He was with RNIB and now he's with Leonard Cheshire and brilliant blind screen reader user and he's brilliant. Okay, great, well, let's have him look at it. But we also need to have people that are blind, that are new to screen readers, looking at it and seeing how you know. So it's like making sure you're bringing in the right people, and I'm saying you do need the Steve Tyler's, but you also need other members and other disabilities. So it's interesting sometimes I will meet people that say, well, we did let one person with disability look at it And I don't believe that's what you're saying, charlie. So it is actually listing differently as society.

Debra Ruh: 9:58

But I know that we want to talk to you about global symbols, but before we do that, i wanted just for a minute, talk just a little bit about what you're doing with some of the assistive technology, because you mentioned to Antonio and I that you were working with the A center learning, which is a very large nonprofit I'm sorry I'm using us terms is a very large foundation, maybe in the UK, and they focus on. They have a master's degree which we know about. It's a fabulous master's degree in AT and it feels like from the studies I've done one. It's a very robust program And there I know that you have supported them on augmentative communications. But I was wondering if you could tell us a little bit about the A center learning. And then also we want to hear a little bit about what you're doing with CINMAC.

Charlie Danger: 10:45

Cool, okay, yeah, so. So AceCentre Learning. So the AceCentre is a yeah, it's a UK charity, national UK charity, and it's also sort of funded by the NHS. So it does AAC Hub funding for people that need communication aids. But they also do research into communication aids, a little bit like the RERC in the USA, something similar to that, and they do loads of product research and stuff like that. They're a great organisation. They're always working directly with people who use AAC. You know all the time doing assessments and providing and stuff.

Charlie Danger: 11:21

But they've also picked up over the decades you know a lot of skills and talent and experience which they've turned into modules which used to be part of a master's degree at the MMU, the Manchester Metropolitan University, but now they're part of a master's degree which, as you said, is highly respected, the AT and education master's degree. That's based at the University of Dundee. So that's where a lot of that work is going. I am, fortunately, responsible for writing quite a lot of that content And the interesting thing is you don't actually have to go to the University of Dundee to study that specific module. You can also do it through A-Center directly. So instead of doing it as a master's degree, you can just do their module on augmented communication or their module on assistive technology or access just from their website.

Charlie Danger: 12:14

And they've also got loads of courses that are designed to support people at that primary care community level. So people who don't know about assistive technology but are working with people who might benefit from it. So basically really easy but practical, functional stuff. So basically the reason why my voice sounds excited is because this has really improved in the last three or four years. I guess I've really noticed it getting better and better, from being something that was like a sort of a rusty old acorn that you didn't think would necessarily grow.

Charlie Danger: 12:45

Sorry, a-center but it's really just boomed and so many great resources, so much, so many contributions from so many really wonderful people in the field And because I'm an author, i can just flick through everybody else's work and it just looks great. I'm really proud of the stuff that A-Center's doing and I think there's stacks of free stuff on there as well, so you can always dip your toe in and have a look and see what you think.

Debra Ruh: 13:10

Which is really, really cool. One of my team members is nonverbal And I remember one time I put her on. She spoke at an AI women's conference and we were so nervous that I was so nervous. I was so nervous that things would go wrong, and so we came up with Plan A, b, c, d, just in case something went wrong with their technology. So the first thing that happened was I asked her that we prearranged the questions. But we did everything And, of course, the first question went beautifully. It went to ask her. The next question. It was a panel and I was the moderator and the technology failed. So, as it happened, we went to Plan C, plan B failed And then we went to Plan C and we were working on it, but as it was happening and I moved on and started talking to the other panel, so because we still had a timeline, but as it happened in the background, like right now I'm talking you're watching Antonio sitting there right The audience watched Rosemary try to troubleshoot what was happening.

Debra Ruh: 14:16

She's very strong, so she's troubleshooting with her head crown, which she chooses to use. She also does eye gaze and she was troubleshooting in the background And we got it working. But the comments that were made afterwards about watching this woman try to solve her technical problems with being able to not use her hands. She can't, use her body, she can't. They were blown away, impressed, and so it was like I'm trying for their it to work perfectly And maybe the universe is saying no, no, let's break it. What? because they learn more watching this brilliant woman Try to figure this out. And, by the way, she did figure it out. Anyway, sorry, i know you also wanted to talk about what you're doing with CINMAC, which was created in 1968. You said it's the oldest AT organization in the world, which pretty impressive.

Charlie Danger: 15:08

Yeah, I try to investigate that and there's definitely one of the oldest There's definitely organizations that do assist, of technology that started off in visual impairments, such as the RNIB. That would be older, but I didn't look exploring see if I could find an older one. But yeah, so despite the fact they're old, they've been modernizing again. This is a great thing. That's happened in the last 10 years. I think Under under the, under the management of a lady called Catherine Stowell and the, she decided to move the organization over to the set framework.

Charlie Danger: 15:42

Basically, it's a. It's a way of looking at assistive technology, especially in schools. Because this is a school, i should say this is a school organization that can work with any of the schools and colleges in and around London. So, rather than putting technology first, which Can be easily done, instead it looks at the student, the environment, the tasks that they need to do, and then, okay, what technology is going to fit into that. And this was revolution. This is revolutionary for parts of the UK where It's very tempting, you know, to see a new piece of technology and think, oh, let's get that in. And As a result of this, their popularity across London has been increasing and it's been difficult to keep up with the staffing. But the I mean I've only been back, i've worked a little bit in the past, but I've only been back there for a couple of years and the the team seems to have increased fourfold since I started and we're still looking for more people, and so we've got a team of speech and language therapists, a huge team of teachers, specialist teaching assistants, occupational therapists and We the.

Charlie Danger: 16:42

The thing I really love about that work is that One, the services getting bigger, and it's really exciting to know that more and more children, young people across London are going to be Helped by this service. You know, i'm seeing that. That's really exciting. And the other thing is I get to work with the students over time, so I get to go out and meet the students in the classrooms and sometimes at home. Very fortunate, because I I get to see the How do I say this like this, slightly more tricky cases where we're having to like really look at some imaginative solutions like I believe, systems and Obviously, things like I gaze and stuff like that. So I get to go out and do that and it's It's really exciting, it's really not. It's really good organization and loads of imaginative things.

Charlie Danger: 17:28

And we put on a free, a Free Conference every May and it's completely free to exhibit at. It's free to attend. It's getting. That is getting bigger and bigger. It's in a football stadium at the moment, but it's well like a part of the football stadium, not on the pitch, and That's getting bigger and bigger and there's talk about moving that to a new venue. It's just again, it's really lovely to see something that's just constantly evolving and expanding and Helping, helping more people on a daily basis. You know there's more people being referred, more people being helped, so Double thumbs up.

Antonio Santos: 18:07

So I try, i like to do a kind of a parallel between Some of some of the things that we listen for some from our guests in the past you on access chat. We have guests, you know, working at the enterprise where they are trying to make assistive tech Part of the regular tech that they offer, part of the portfolio. So if an employee needs a mouse, they can just put the request for a mouse to be approved. If they put a request for assistive tech, that it will be approved, it's part of regular IT. You know, there's nothing special about that. Yeah, how do you see Something like that progressing at the at the education level? No, no, when the school, as a student who have Who needs a specific kit of assistive technology, how can we evolve and make that part of as normal as it can be? you know, instead of struggling or in say, oh, we need to find something special for this person, how do you see that evolving?

Charlie Danger: 19:09

Well, so that's very interesting. So I'm more of the ilk of being somebody who kind of curates Possibilities for people for them to choose from, rather than being a gatekeeper that they have to queue up and apply for funding for, if you see what I mean. And So what I. What we try and do is we try and offer as many options as possible to individuals, but we curate those down as to what's going to actually be possible. And obviously what we need there is really good Communication and lines of understanding and quick ways in and not not long waits to see people who curate stuff because you still have to wait for it.

Charlie Danger: 19:49

But as I travel around London, we still meet people all the time who say I've never heard of SEMAC, and that may be Obviously, a parent might not have heard of us. That's understandable. Sometimes it's a school a school for children with physical disabilities may not have heard of SEMAC. Sometimes it's a local authority which is like I think they're called administrations in the States, but you know it's a big area full of full of schools might not have heard of us. So by improving the communication to make sure people at all levels understand that we're here, then it's as easy as people picking up a phone and saying what is what it's the process for for using you, but there is still a cost for using us. We're we're part of a school actually, so we're completely not profit, but still there is a cost to using us And there is a wait.

Charlie Danger: 20:34

So something happened, 13 years ago I think, which changed from in the field of augmentative communication, changed everything, and at the time, a lot people were a little bit miffed about this. But basically, in about two, 2011, rather than waiting two years for an assessment, maybe, and having to raise five thousand pounds for a piece of equipment and then having that equipment prescribed by the National Health Service to you, rather than going through that process, you could go down to Asta August Walmart. You could buy an iPad for 300 400 pounds With a communication aid piece of software on it, take it home and use it straight away. Whether you were somebody who, yourself Were unable to speak or unable to speak clearly, or whether it was your child, you could just go and do that.

Charlie Danger: 21:25

This upset a lot people and caused a lot of issues, because we're like well, how do they know they're getting the right one? How do we know they've got the right symbols or the right vocabulary or the right access methods. You know, like what? they've got to wait two years for an appointment with this service. And this actually may be fine, it may be perfect And also what it does is it offers the power to the parents and the families and the users to go off and choose what they want, rather than wait for us to come and decide and prescribe things, so I really like it, i just want. What I do want to do, though, is I want to be here to support those who choose to use our service, who are like hey, we've looked into these communication aids and we've looked into this access and we don't really get it. It seems a bit complicated and we want some advice and support. Then we're there to advise and support, curate together some options for people to choose from, but yeah, so that's.

Charlie Danger: 22:14

I mean it's been a big change in. AT since the iPad came out, it's completely changed everything.

Debra Ruh: 22:21

Right, and I think people are so confused about what assistive technology is. We used to have somebody in our community on access chat that was always saying I mean, assistive technology is just something that they're creating to hold us back. If you build a website fully accessible, you don't need assistive technology, which is 100% not true, not true, not true, not true. So we used to argue with them But, yeah, he was just convinced that assistive technology was the problem, which we don't agree with. But let's talk a little bit more about global symbols, and I want to say that when I was looking at global symbols, i noticed that the people that are involved we've had multiple of them on our show. So, like EA Draft and Who We Love EA is brilliant.

Debra Ruh: 23:12

David Baines, just as I love David Baines, i love him. I don't know Steve Lee very well, but I've heard of him. But also I don't know Russell Newman, but obviously I've got to meet these two gentlemen too, but it's quite the team there And I was looking at it and it's interesting how you're doing it, because when you say global symbols, charlie, i immediately in my head start thinking what does that mean? Right, but it's so much bigger than what I thought it meant, and so I was just wondering if maybe you could start by explaining what you mean by global symbols and what you're doing. But I love what you're doing, i love it.

Charlie Danger: 23:54

Cool, Yeah, OK, Yes, This is another exciting thing that's making life better. I think So. Back in 2015,. I'll give you a very quick history. Back in 2015, David Baines you mentioned, and I and other people working sort of trying to set up a new service and develop a service in Qatar, in the Middle East Right And for the communication aid users we were, and those who use symbols for other reasons, we were identifying that the pictorial symbols didn't quite match with their cultural norms And a lot of the things that because when you go to somewhere like the Middle East, in Qatar, the first thing you notice is, a lot of things look very different And so the nouns didn't match up was the main thing.

Charlie Danger: 24:42

And obviously then there weren't symbols for their specific religious and cultural elements, because symbols that basically what I'm referring to is the symbols that are made, that use internationally are drawn in an office in New York And there's another office somewhere in the UK somewhere where people are busily drawing away these symbols.

Charlie Danger: 24:59

And the symbols are great if you're in those Western countries, plus if you're following the same sort of culture that the symbols are designed for as well. So we kind of found that at that point that we couldn't get symbols for certain things. So we sort of started drawing them And then we identified that actually, who were we, david Baines and I, both being here from England who were we to decide what these symbols should look like? Why are we hiring a graphic designer and saying, oh, you need to design these symbols? So we came up with a system whereby we democratized symbols And we created this whole voting process And we tested it out in Qatar And from that we developed a whole new symbol set which is freely available on the Global Symbols website, and so symbols were generated out of that And those symbols were drawn by local graphic designers, but they were voted on and decided by loads of stakeholders, including symbol users themselves. And we even used alternative access-assisted technology so that people could choose their symbols and could vote on them. So it was really quite thorough. And then since then we've kind of ran the same project with UNICEF in four or five European countries and gone through the same process and generated symbol sets on that as well.

Charlie Danger: 26:23

But when we were working with UNICEF, we kind of realized that actually it's not just about the symbols, like you were just saying, deborah, that the symbols are important.

Charlie Danger: 26:31

What are the symbols for? They're just floating around And all those are symbols. What we needed to do in those countries as well was provide training and implementation and support, and we partnered with universities and departments of education and really large sort of special educational schools and things like that, And we have really good outcomes from it because we adapted the training as well, in the same way that we adapted the symbols to be culturally appropriate or appropriate to the financial situation of the country or to the amount of time they could offer or the organization we're working with. We did the same with the training implementation as well. And all of the training and all of the symbols and even the structure of how we went around working with UNICEF to implement this is all completely freely available on the Global Symbols website. So if somebody wants to copy us, somebody in a different country, somewhere in the world who are like hey, I had the idea of AAC.

Charlie Danger: 27:28

They can follow our implementation plan And they can do what they like with it. They can follow it And then they can also go through the partnership building and the training building and the symbols. Oh, all the training materials that we made are also just up on our website, free for people to translate and do what they like with. So what a project. And there's more coming which I can tell you about in a minute.

Antonio Santos: 27:56

Yeah, So, Charlie, so you had a problem. You adapted based on the needs and you were mentioning that some stuff was being developed in New York or in London. Do you see this? that that is still a problem that we have today in assistive tech, that we have people in places developing technology, but then the reality of that we have in different countries around the world might collide with what the designers thought it was needed people needed.

Charlie Danger: 28:29

Yeah, it's a very good question. I'd certainly say that a lot of the equipment that comes out of the organizations, the big famous assistive organizations that we use all the time, like AbleNet, is probably too expensive to be used everywhere in the world. And then another example is we're currently doing a project in Kenya in the slums around Nairobi, and they have no electricity. So we have to consider assistive technology that allows people to communicate that doesn't require electricity, or can require a little bit of electricity that would last for ages. So something like an iPad that runs out of power really quickly wouldn't be a good idea. So I feel like, yeah, the assistive products that are made by these big companies Temudana, vox, smartbox these are great in UK schools and UK homes, but they don't necessarily fit into the environment elsewhere. Plus languages that are available on the devices, plus the cultural appropriateness of the symbols, but then, more than that, places, a lot of other places in the world, don't have the technical support that backs it up for this equipment.

Charlie Danger: 29:45

I mean, debra, you were telling that story about your friend who had an issue. You know plan A issue in this panel. I mean, this technology is made in quite small amounts and so it does fail quite frequently. You know, microsoft Windows isn't designed to really cope with these peculiar programs, and so you need somebody there to support it, and so it's not just about taking technology and moving it around the world. And then the other thing I would say is there are countries around the world who are producing great apps and technologies that we just don't know about and it's really hard to find out about, and so one of the things I've experienced since joining Global Symbols is we're reaching out to these regions around the world and actually we find out that everybody got these solutions and they're really fascinating to see how they've done it and compare them to how we've done it and be like you did it that way.

Charlie Danger: 30:43

That's an interesting way of doing it, but broadly we're kind of finding the same solutions in isolation somehow. But I guess it would be better if we all just worked together and had better communication between all the regions rather than reinventing the wheel. But sometimes when people reinvent the wheel they come up with a new idea that you wouldn't have thought of in the existing years. So I don't know if that answered your question, tony but we're done a bit of a tangent.

Antonio Santos: 31:11

Let's go to actually one of the core ideas that goes back to the early days of AccessChat, that we aim to bring people from different parts of the world to have these type of discussions, because sometimes we've seen people using existing devices, adjusting them, hacking them, and able to come up with solutions that were able to solve their local problems. And sometimes nobody were really aware, because everything that they post on the web is in Spanish or in their own language, so it's not captured by mainstream media or it doesn't get the same level of attention. So it's really refreshing to see your views on that as well.

Debra Ruh: 31:55

I agree And, charlie, i know that we've already kept you over 30 minutes because we're having a great conversation, but I have probably a question that might take a little bit longer in then. but we would be Antonio and I in the audience would really love to know how are you all funding these very, very important projects? How are you all being funded? because we need you to be funded. so I can't wait for you to tell me how much money you all have. All right, i'll be quiet, you go. I think it's a little weird faces right now for those that can't see the audience that can't see. Yeah.

Charlie Danger: 32:36

Yeah Well, so Global Symbols gets its funding through grants, so everything we do, if something comes up, we're like, okay, we need to find a grant to do that, which is awesome. Yeah Well, i mean, this is David Baines. He's our grant person, so he looks all of this stuff, but it also means some of the projects that we do are defined by what grants are available. So we've just started on a European Justice Project, which is ensuring that people who use or use alternative communication are fairly treated or have fair access to European justice inside and outside the courts, and so we're involved in using symbols and other.

Charlie Danger: 33:24

AAC methods or aided AAC methods with that group, and that was because there was a big grant, of which we're a small cog in a big grant, to make European justice more accessible. So that's an example of what happens. And then me, david and I and Steve Lee and Russell do a lot of pro bono work, so we do a lot of those in our spare time as well, because it's something we're passionate in.

Debra Ruh: 33:51

Oh yeah, i know nothing about that. Oh yeah, oh golly, it's just amazing how we don't want to pay our social enterprise, but that's okay. We're trying to shift. But I said that purposely to the audience because, once again, this is so important and yet they don't have funding. So if you are in the position to help fund what they're doing at global symbols, they need it and we all need to get behind them and support them.

Debra Ruh: 34:17

So, and also, Charlie, i'm raising my hand right now to I want to help and I'll go to you and David and I want to help spread the word because it's just so important in what you are doing. So I'll come back to you on that, but let me please thank our supporters. We are so grateful for my clear text, for staying in there with us the whole time we've been on Aired Access Chat, and our new supporter, amazon. We really really appreciate Amazon caring about our community and really wanting to make sure we're included, and so we think we're thankful to them and to all of the audience. So, charlie, thank you for all you're doing and you're making a big difference and we definitely appreciate it. So thanks to the audience. We hope Neil joins us next week. Thank you so much.