Progress and Challenges in Disability Inclusion at Work

Have you ever questioned how disability inclusion is making strides in the corporate world? We have brought a distinguished guest, Lucy Ruck from the Business Disability Forum, to shed light on this significant topic. Lucy, equipped with fresh data from a recent workplace adjustment survey, offers a close perspective on the difficulties individuals face when seeking accommodations, the aspirations of disabled workers to climb the corporate ladder, and the alarming statistic that 38% of disabled individuals have encountered bullying, harassment, or discrimination at work. 

Turning our focus to global data, we examine the role of corporate brands in disability inclusion. Lucy emphasizes the importance of understanding the findings from a global viewpoint. She illustrates how corporate brands can volunteer their resources to create inclusive programs, tools, and procedures under the effective model of the Business Disability Forum. We also delve into the need for more comprehensive research to grasp the experiences of disabled individuals in the workforce. 

In the latter part of our chat, we delve into the potent combination of collaboration and innovation in advocating for disability inclusion. We touch upon the importance of inclusive language and lucid communication in discussions around disability. Listen in as Lucy shares her personal experiences as an amputee and how to foster positivity in conversations about disability. We conclude our chat by highlighting the necessity of mainstreaming disability inclusion conversations and reinforcing the power of inclusive language. Don't miss this enlightening conversation on the evolving landscape of disability inclusion in the workplace.

Chapters

• 0:01 Workplace Adjustments and Disability Discrimination
• 7:31 Corporate Brands and Disability Inclusion
• 14:25 Promoting Disability Inclusion and Positive Communication
• 26:20 Collaboration and Innovation in Disability Inclusion

Transcript

NEIL: 0:01

Hello and welcome to AXSChat. We're delighted to welcome back Lucy Ruck who is a friend of ours, longterm collaborator through the Business Disability Forum. The better half of the Ruck power couple? Anthony's going to give me some trouble next time but anyway, so, Lucy, you're the Tech Taskforce Manager of Business Disability Forum, For those that don't know, Business Disability Forum is based in the UK lots of UK businesses participate but has more and more international feel to it. I've been involved for the past 13 years and unlucky for some like Lucy, who had to put up with me for 13 years. So, Lucy, welcome back Lucy, what's new?

LUCY: 0:55

What's new, well actually funny enough Neil, we met in my first week in the role which wasn't as long as 13 years ago it was about nineandahalf years ago, and you did that great thing of actually making the connection. You think with a surname like Ruck it's an unusual surname, you said is there any connection with Anthony Ruck? And I was like oh yes, he's my husband,"Ah" was your response, so I thought what the heck does that mean? so I thought is that a bad thing! I was like, I had no idea. So, yeah.

DEBRA: 1:24

But you know Anthony so it could be either way, right Lucy?

LUCY: 1:27

Exactly, I had no way to interpret that one and Neil was not giving anything away at all. So yeah, we go back a little way. Debra and I have passed across Antonio as well with different things so really lovely to be with you today so thank you for inviting me on. What's new? I don't know, things kind of chugging along, we're still fantastic group at the Technology Task Force, doing great stuff. The last few years have been challenging but exciting I suppose in terms of Covid and the way that's taken us and I think you know being part of a network or a group where you can come together with people that you trust from other businesses in similar positions to yourself, for our members has been so critical because we are, we create such a safe space where people do talk about what has been challenging, what has worked and what hasn't worked and can be genuine about that, I don't think there are many big organisations that do that of course, so, you know, we're really proud. And of course, the other big thing that's happened in the last week or so is our great big workplace adjustment survey, we've done that for the second time. I have to admit I have a printout of facts and figures in front of me because I'm absolutely hopeless of remembering statistics so there's no way I'd remember anything unless I wrote it down, I'm not as clever as my colleague Angela who is amazing at this stuff.

NEIL: 2:59

One of the reasons I put that in the chat, actually what is interesting to me was that I saw a lot more mainstream media picking up on it and then it's been fed back to me from people that are outside of the direct accessibility/disability sphere. So, for example, former CEO of ours pinged me on LinkedIn in with a link to one of the articles that was quoting it. Which I think is really positive sign that organisations are starting to understand that it is an issue outside of the ones that were already engaged with BDF so that I think is a good thing. Obviously, the findings of the survey are less good but at least it's the interest means that we can start acting on some of those findings in the survey.

LUCY: 4:08

Yeah, in terms of making sure we cover the whole of the audience, workplace adjustments, we're talking about accommodations from the US perspective to keep Debra happy but there was all sorts of stuff, if I cover off statistics for a moment, I will be head down, just for a moment while I read it you're lucky I didn't have my reading glasses on, I had large print, I reached that age. About 78% of people who completed the survey said they had to initiate the process, so initiated from individuals rather than line managers offering that support. And any 10% said it wasn't easy so the processes in place aren't working that well so that's really interesting. Excuse the rustling of papers, I will need to put my reading glasses on, reached that age.

DEBRA: 4:56

And you look so beautiful with your glasses.

LUCY: 4:59

I'm looking for intelligent image, peering over my glasses. 62% wanted to be promoted a more senior and higher paid role in their current organisations so people want to progress. But 45% said nearly half people want to be in a different organisation, they want to move on so that's interesting. People are ambitious, they want to do stuff. Only 18% are very satisfied with their current work situation. Now that's not necessarily all down to adjustments but it will pay a key role in that. Here was a really worrying one actually which was about behaviours, that they're experiencing because of their disability from employees and 38% have been bullied harassed or discriminated against at work, 38% that's really high I think and that's all do with disabilities. It might be that they thought they're treated differently because they have asked for adjustments. There was good stuff about managers. Just see if I can find it, I won't find it now that I mentioned it, managers were supportive. I won't find the stat, but they were supportive and wanted to do the right thing, especially when it was understanding their control. When you were sat at your desk, that was great, but what about when the adjustment is going to the canteen maybe or going to the cafe in the, onsite, and adjustments you might need there in terms of someone helping you or people assisting you or whatever that might be, that was more difficult to manage when they fell outside of 'sat at their desk' kind of stuff. Managers wanted it, managers wanted to help at work, it was around the 60 something, if I recall, they were supportive, but some didn't know where to go for this stuff. There was positive stuff in there, the fact it is getting press, as Neil said is really good, look it up, I'm sure we can put a link in the bio around that, there is good statistics in there, and lovely info graphics and accessible information to access and recommendations, because that's the key thing, it is all good collecting this data, but what can we do, how with can he make this process easier for individuals?

DEBRA: 7:20

Cool, I was trying to behave for a change, and I didn't want to step on you, Lucy, I had another question but then you made me think of a question when you were giving that. First of all, I want to thank BDF for your continued leadership role of making sure that you are looking at these statistics as much as possible from a global perspective. I know that a lot of groups say they're global but it feels often like they're just looking at it from their own country lens, so I have always appreciated what BDF have done, I always appreciated how BDF have been able to get corporate brands like a Neil working with ATOS, volunteer in so much time and effort and really digging in to help us come up with programmes, plans, tools, processes, that work for everyone. I've always thought that was a very powerful model that others have not implemented as effectively as BDF, I want to say that I was hopeful for a grew groups but just didn't, I haven't seen it like I have with BDF so compliments there. But I was curious, and I do not know if you all would have asked this, because maybe it wouldn't be relevant, first of all we need more grounded research, we need to hear what people are saying, what is being heard so I applaud the great big agreement survey too because we need that data. But we're hearing overall that people are quietly quitting consciously quit something what Paul Polman said in the article he did, and they're consciously quitting, quietly quitting which is very scary to the corporate brands because if somebody is consciously doing something, that means they're considering a lot of different things and you are not meeting the needs of these employees that are leaving. So, one thing I was curious when you said some of the statistics that, there were higher and that was unfortunate the bullying and some of that but, the ones that said they wanted to go to another company I would be curious and probably wouldn't have been appropriate but would be curious to tie some of your findings into some of the findings like Paul Polman's groups are doing or the people really trying to look at this from a social justice, social impact Lens. And, because I think we could tell even more about what is happening in the world, what are people really thinking, what are their captions, how are they changing, who do they want to work for? Maybe they don't want to work for big brands hurting our world anymore. Wait a minute, are the big brands hurting our world right so there's so much confusion, if that was taken to effect.

ANTONIO: 10:09

But let me add something, there was also big study from Gallop and what I can tell you is under the watch of the current head of human resources we are looking at the lowest ever level of employee engagement in, since they are measuring it.

DEBRA: 10:32

Wow!

ANTONIO: 10:33

At the same time, we never had so many tools. We have so many tools and engagement are really, really poor. So, something is happening here, or entities are not using technology in the right way.

DEBRA: 10:50

Put the technology is not accessible to all humans, including people you don't know have disabilities.

ANTONIO: 10:57

Correct.

LUCY: 10:59

Yes, it is interesting, what it made me think about is actually what we did find from the research and I'm terrible at the statistics the people who got the adjustments they needed the most effective adjustments were the ones who kept asking and saying I don't have it yet can you please give it to me, give me what I need, it is the "pushy" people who are outspoken and confident to talk about disabilities unsurprisingly who got the stuff they needed. That won't surprise us what, is nice there are those people who are prepared do that in. In some organisations we know that will be a challenge. What we don't have and what I wouldn't share anyway is who are the good organisations and who are the bad. Because what BDF is really good at, you touched upon that is being the supportive friend of organisations, so, what we do is if someone done something that wasn't great, we will help you get better. So, we really focus on the positive which is why we do well at what we do because we want to help people. Things happen, we're human and made up of individuals who are flawed and make mistakes sometimes, so, yeah, there's a lot of stuff around that. Sorry did you want to come in there Debra.

DEBRA: 12:09

I wanted to say Lucy, you bring up a really, really good point because we recently there's been some articles that have been trashing organisation that is are supporting, supporting corporations because as we all know course corporations are all bad, we don't want to support them of course that's ridiculous, corporations are made up of people. But there are some groups that I know as just representing community of people with disabilities that were really concerned about, we're concerned about some of these indexes that can be done around the world and yet you never have had to hire a person with disability and your website don't have to be accessible, that hurts our community. I haven't seen BDF done any of that, what I witnessed BDF which is why we appreciate your group you are working with the corporate brands to help them be successful a sour community can be included that what it appears to me. But I don't see that always across the board. And I know it is not, I'm not asking you to comment on competitors Lucy I'm not but just saying I believe what we need are groups like yours that will actually help the corporate brands be successful. We have The Valuable 500, yea wonderful, but what is the community doing to get behind the work that needs to be done by these brands to be successful? We can say, you're all just bad. But I don't think that is going to help our community. So, you know, things like this research that you're doing can help, but I was wondering Lucy from your perspective what do you think the groups of us like BDF that are trying to help these corporates really do better, not just corporations I know you work with others but what role do we have to make sure they do a good job? What shall we be doing?

LUCY: 14:08

It is a really difficult one. Obviously, we're funded entirely by your membership so inevitably there's fantastic resources that we have, that we have to just provide to your members and partners that's the way that we are structured as an organisation. We do give some stuff away for free which is great when we can. So, on that text side of things, we have our accessibility maturity model which Neil knows inside and outside probably or handed it on to other people, it is far too important to be doing that.

NEIL: 14:36

I still know it.

LUCY: 14:38

So, there's free tools like that where you can do a check where you are, what things do you need to be thinking about. And you know that's looking at tech. But, tech doesn't sit in isolation within an organisation it tie noose procurement ties into adjustments and ties in across every aspect of your business, so it is about working with your colleagues to ensure that all areas of business are thinking about disability inclusion, and one of the things I often talk about and I know you'll have heard this millions of times on AXSChat people don't design stuff to be inaccessible, it is just they hadn't thought about it, and when they do think about it, great things can happen and that's the bit we have to need to. I don't think I answered your question, I have gone off on a tangent there.

DEBRA: 15:21

To be honest, it isn't a question, do any of us know this? We're figuring it out as we go. As we say, you know, we're building the aeroplane while we're flying it, what could go wrong. We said that in the US about one of our presidents, but I won't digress. But we have to figure it out but, I think once against, it is not going to fix things throwing out large segments of people and saying you're bad. So, let me turn it over to Antonio.

ANTONIO: 15:56

I was looking to some of the recommendations and one of them is about clear communication. Well, many organisations they have internal communicator and communicating all the time but, apparently, they are not reaching the right people so, with a is failing here in terms of the communication? What is your view, Lucy?

LUCY: 16:21

Again, I wasn't involved in the detail of the report but one of the things we do see around communication is language. People love a row name or being unclear. What we also find a lot is the word "disability" can be emotive. Some people will really identify with that, some people really won't identify with that. I'm not disabled, I don't have sight loss or wheelchair user do you know what I mean. What we try and talk about for members of BDF we help guide them what is inclusive language to make sure people understand this would include with people neurodivergent conditions, sight loss, et cetera, giving examples can be helpful because disability is such a broad term. We're the Business Disability Forum so it is intrinsic to what we do, but disability isn't not a bad word it just had a lot of bad history connected to it. But let's not let that word be the barrier to stop people accessing or removing their barriers to the stuff that they need really.

NEIL: 17:23

I think disability is a loaded word. But then if you talk to most people that are in the community that identify as having a disability, they much prefer it to the euphemisms that often get used because people that don't have disabilities don't feel comfortable with the idea of disability. So, that whole area of addressing organisational comforted and confidence which is something that BDF have long done work on historically has done work on disability confidence within organisations you know and then, through the models and the task forces helping to drive the competence as well. It is really important, I think that one of the things we were talking about off air with, it was that all of us here have a connection to disabilities, we've part of the community in one way or another, it is hard work sometimes you know. There's lots of reasons why things don't work, why it is frustrating but that and there's a lot of anger in the in the community and in the communications. And that in itself becomes hard work because you got the emotional labour of dealing with the anger as well. So, how can we how can we have those better, more positive conversations because I think that it can be off putting for people just to be hit with those walls of angst and fury?

LUCY: 19:30

Yeah, I don't know necessarily know the answer to that. What I would say in our meetings we create a safe space where people, inevitably people want to vent a little bit, I think that’s completely understandable. What we focus on is outcomes or positivities of it, to try and find the solutions of it. So social media is a slightly different, I would say beast in that one. And I think my, I've been in amputee for 30 years now, it is my anniversary at the end of the year, so it is anniversary birthday at the end of this year, so I understand the frustrations of living with disability the day in and day out the what's that like so from a personal perspective do I. And I do understand people's frustration when they're confronted with ableism. But there's a huge part of me that thinks, let's support and work with people to help educate them. Now when you hit a brick wall and you say you're having to go again, I understand that frustration, but it is how do we tackle this as a community in a really positive way. So, something around that positivity without being naive about it, life can be really tough sometimes and the challenges that people face day in day out, many times during the course of a day are tough. And that resilience is exhausting and why should we have to be. I understand all those things, but I still think let's keep a positive spin on this, as much as we possibly can. Even through gritted teeth. I mean I was looking at a car the other week, I went to test the drive, the guy was awful, so rude to us, he sat at the back of the car on his phone, hardly bothered to talk to us and answer questions. Maybe it was me - at the end I was like thank you so much for taking us out, I really appreciate it. And I kind of think, kill people with kindness almost because actually, why should that bring me down and I get really annoyed about that, all that will do is make me annoyed and I think, we all need to have resilience, maybe it is called twofaced, maybe it is called professional. But I think don't let other people drag you down. I know that is really hard and we have bad days but keep the positivity up, that's my vibe on that one.

DEBRA: 21:43

I agree, and you know, it is so easy to complain, because there's a lot to complain about. And there's a lot to be mad about, and there's a lot the way I'm looking at it these days, I don't want to hear your complaints and I'm not going to let you hear my complaints, but I want to know what you're doing personally, you to make a world a better place? What are you doing? Because we all can do little things so I'm with you

LUCY: 22:09

It is not faking it until you are making it, or anything else but it is not I'm not going to let you ruin my day.

DEBRA: 22:15

Things are too hard. My business partner Richard sadly, 13 days ago he lost his father it was horrible, sad, well his mother died yesterday, you just don't know what people are walking, she wasn't sick, you don't know what people are dealing with, but assume they're being traumatised. Horribly traumatised. I know my family was traumatised so couldn't we just maybe give each other a tiny little break and be kinder to each other because it is really hard. It is really hard.

NEIL: 22:49

And that old saying - you catch more flies with honey than with vinegar. It still applies. You know, when we collaborate, we are able to achieve more. Now I get that there is a place for protest and frustration you know. We as a community lost some of our biggest protest leaders, Judy Heumann was recognised for the work that she and others led to protest. So it is not that we don't raise the issue, I'm not suggesting that it is about how we address those issues without the anger becoming all consuming, you know, it is the issues that matter more than the emotion. Now, I get that it is emotional. I get emotional when I'm denied access to things. But, at the same time it is yes, it is working out how to moderate that emotion to a point where you're able to have those civil interactions with people that move the thing forward.

LUCY: 24:12

Yeah. I don't know about you especially it was brewing a little bit preCovid but certainly in the last year the world feels very divisive, and I think we look for differences rather than similarities. And I think we just need to change the narrative on that a little bit, to look for the commonality and again, I think we'll even get it within the disability community a little bit, I see it almost becomes a pecking order of top trumps of who has the best or most disabilities and it doesn't matter, we're acquiring more disabilities, day-on-day almost. So, it is, just through the ageing process, and I think we just need to not worry about that too much but focus on what we can do, what can impact and be in the best people we can be and look for what is similar, because that's a lot of similarity, I think.

DEBRA: 25:07

Yes, and give each other a break, can we just give each other a break right now.

LUCY: 25:12

Maybe even a hug every now and again.

DEBRA: 25:15

Touching people, and I mean this, you know, it is just really nice sometimes to get a hug. I remember getting a hug from Roxanne and my dear friend from Geneva, it is just gold, it makes you feel like oh I like being around human beings, that's right. Most of them.

NEIL: 25:35

Some of them!

DEBRA: 25:37

Right.

NEIL: 25:40

I'll get a thank you in my box. So, yeah, I think that yes, we do need to be nice. And that was one of the things that BDF have always done well.

DEBRA: 25:52

I agree.

NEIL: 25:54

That safe space.

DEBRA: 25:57

Actually, I think Neil BDF have really been a role model with that, because I've seen other business to business grouping with just so competitive and it is like, oh no we'll rule the world. It is like, why disappoint we not all rule the world. Why don't we instead help each other. So, I just appreciate the leadership that I've seen from BDF.

NEIL: 26:21

Yeah, I do think it is collaborative and we need to learn, relearn collaboration. As humans, because collaboration doesn't mean Teams or Slack. It is, it is what it is being boiled down to, collaboration is an approach to life.

DEBRA: 26:45

Right.

LUCY: 26:46

I think the other thing we're good at is we're pragmatic and we have toolkits and great solutions in place now on our resources to really try and guide people. But not to go, this is how you do it I think we give guidance around stuff but what works for Unilever won't work for GSK or the banks. Everyone has their own approach so what we're good at is, here is guidance on things you'll have to think about, and then go away and then allow people to do it with their own slant on it. I think that is really important and yeah, it is lovely when we do get together in the same physical space and Neil does like a glass of wine occasionally, I think it is fair to say. I know it is shocking.

DEBRA: 27:29

I think what is interesting what you're doing is, once again the collaboration, but I am curious and I love you said this Lucy, that a lot of the resources that you built over years and years, it is actually free. And I like when you put a resource out there, and then, we see what the brand will do with it. Because one thing I've always said about once again I'm just saying, seeing corporations like we do in the stupid US in that their people, about you no corporations are made up of people so one thing that I like is that I have always said that, if you need a corporation to do something, like we expect corporations to do something with disability inclusion accessibility and the United States, we expect law and then we sue, so we have expectations what we find the corporations will do whatever we tell them they have to do. They want to follow all the laws, but I find that the way they do it, if we give them guidance is so clever and innovative. That's another thing you've done good at BDF is you've given the guidance and said ATOS, what will you do with this? OK, Lloyds, what will you do with this? And then you share that innovation, that I think is how you move forward. So, I just think that's very powerful.

LUCY: 28:51

You can't lift and shift. What will work in ATOS won't work in Lloyds Bank. So, you can't just go take that, plop it in there, that is going to be lovely. It doesn't work like that, it needs to work with the culture, the people, what the senior champions, you got to make it work. You can give guidance, I mean it I have people come together in a network meeting, which wouldn't work, but if we pick it up and shift it about and take the components of it, that he would interesting, it is that spark, that energy, and that enthusiasm, that's the stuff that makes it work. And we always talk about sharing best practice, this is what this is, but I like to call it nicking everyone else's great ideas, because fundamentally it is the same thing, isn't it. Antonio is trying to get a word in desperately.

ANTONIO: 29:46

We started AXSChat to try to bring this conversation to certain context. And early in our conversation today you were telling us that some of the press was picking up part of the report. But it seemed it is still taking a lot of time for example to have someone from the Business Disability Forum speaking on stage at the big tech events in the UK in Brussels, or in Washington. Why are those barriers seeming to be so difficult to break and bring this conversation to top mainstream events?

LUCY: 30:29

Yes, it is a really good question, Antonio. In so many ways the D&I agenda is massive but in so many basic ways the disability is still a poor relative in this one and other topics get more headline. There are some great organisations we work with, so many of them who really get it and are really good. They are not talking about it more, we work with the Microsoft and Googles, and they're obviously, it is in their best interest, let's be honest to work in this space and promote the great accessibility they now build in which everyone will benefit from. And yeah, it is coming, but I think it is just a little bit slow. People are cautious as well of saying the wrong thing, maybe tying back into the other conversation we moved on to so it would be great to hear more about it, I notice it, I think we do, we'll notice it because we're in the community, so you notice when those bits come out. It is like in advertising we notice disability more is creeping into that. It is getting there. But it is still underrepresented I would say.

ANTONIO: 31:36

Yeah. Thanks.

NEIL: 31:39

I think, we still need to sort of gate crash the party a little bit. Hopefully, we will. Not shy of doing it, but it needs to be lots of us. So, here's to gate crashing. So, I think we've reached the end of our allotted time as always been a real pleasure. Need to thank MyClearText for keeping outside captioned and accessibility and Amazon for their support for AXSChat as well. So, thank you very much Lucy, I'm sure we're going to have fun on Twitter too. No doubt we'll follow up and see you in real life.

LUCY: 32:25

Remember, positivity.

DEBRA: 32:29

Agree, I agree.

NEIL: 32:30

Yes. Excellent. Keep calm and carry on.