The Power of Collaboration in Furthering Disability Inclusion

Imagine a world where inclusion isn't an afterthought but a priority. A world where no one is left out, irrespective of their abilities. This episode brings you Bernd Schramm, from GIZ, a private entity working on behalf of the German government, who shares his insights into creating such a world. We dive into the journey of GIZ in prioritizing disability inclusion, discussing the challenges faced, and the progression made ever since the UN Convention on the Rights of Persons with Disabilities.

We also highlight the power of collaborations, with organizations such as Atos, Zero Project, and Enable India, that are truly transforming the discourse around inclusion. Be ready to discover how these partnerships are creating more jobs for people with disabilities and how they're leveraging technology to drive global change. We round off by exploring the upcoming third Global Disability Summit and its potential to advance the cause of inclusion. Tune in to enlighten yourself about the possibilities of a future unmarred by discrimination and fear, where everyone has an equal playing field.

Chapters

• 0:02 GIZ's Work in Disability Inclusion
• 16:29 Collaborating for Inclusion and Impact
• 27:34 Opportunities for Disability Inclusion and Collaboration

Transcript

NEIL: 0:02

Hello and welcome to AXSChat. No Antonio this week because he's on holiday. It's about time that someone else in the team took a holiday other than me. But we are very lucky to be joined by my good friend and collaborator on many good projects, Bernd Schramm from GIZ, so welcome, Bernd. So first off, please tell us a little bit about GIZ, what it is. I'll explain for people. It's (speaking German), and don't get me to repeat that because I won't be able to. But for those of you that are in US, it's probably the equivalent of US Aid. Yeah, so Bernd, please tell us about GIZ and the work they're doing.

BERND: 0:52

Thank you, Neil, and, yeah, thank you for the invitation. Thanks for having me. Yes, GIZ is actually an international service provider. We are working in the field of international cooperation for sustainable development and international education work. And we are dedicated to shaping a future worth living around the world. That's our slogan. So we work with businesses, civil society actors, research institutions, usually in partnership fostering successful interactions and partnerships between development, policy and other areas of work. So GIZ basically stands for German International Cooperation. Last year, GIZ generated a business volume of around 4 billion euros. So I say business volume because we are not a government body. We are actually a private entity but working on behalf of the German government mostly but not exclusively. We are also working for other commissioning parties. Yeah, and GIZ, we are having 25,000plus employees all over the world. Most of them are national staff. We are working in 120 countries, yeah, and, actually, our commissioning parties are broad as a well. About 80% of our business is with the German government. That's in short.

NEIL: 2:17

Thank you. And, obviously, our paths cross because we're – in my day job, at Atos, we're collaborating and have collaborated on a number of projects. So your focus, particularly in your role within GIZ, is around disability inclusion. Can you tell us a bit about how you came to work in the disability inclusion space and what your role now entails?

BERND: 2:47

Yeah. Yes, sure. Very good question. I started to work on disability inclusion actually 15 years ago. I mean, in the area of disability inclusion in development, I have to say, 15 years ago at GIZ, or before it was called German Technical Cooperation, GTZ. And that was the time actually where GTZ at that time first – for the first time worked on disability issues as part of social protection. At that time, I was working in the area of social protection, and the UN convention on the rights of persons with disabilities was adapted by the UN, and the German government decided that now we have to do something for persons with disabilities as well, 15 years ago. And I was actually one of the first in GIZ who started this journey, but after some time, I went abroad. I worked in Vietnam and Cambodia for ten years altogether in the health sector. And here also we were supporting the government's health sector policy with a particular view on persons with disabilities and also, let's say, vulnerable groups. So I was carrying this subject with me all the time, and when I returned to Germany in 2016, I became head of an advisory project to BMZ on disability inclusion which was turned into a global programme in 2019. And since then, I have been working on disability inclusion within German and international cooperation. For instance, in the areas of economic development and employment promotion, inclusive education and vocational training, access to public services for all, digital inclusive innovations, collection of data, disability data, and, yeah, support organisations of persons with disabilities as well. So it's quite a variety of topics which we are covering in this global programme on the inclusion of persons with disabilities which I'm heading at GIZ since 2019.

NEIL: 5:20

Debra, I think you're on mute.

DEBRA: 5:23

Yes, and thank you for everything you're doing. I really enjoyed meeting you at Zero Project. It was... It's just really nice getting to meet all the different leaders at global conferences like that. I would be curious, and I'm so happy that this happened, but why did you all decide that it was important to also include this part of the population in the social justice efforts that you are doing?

BERND: 5:46

Yeah. I mean, we all know that persons with disabilities are very often neglected. They are neglected in development cooperation. They are also neglected when it comes to developing products that, let's say, fit or that serve their specific needs, and we also know that it's a huge population. It's not only 16% of the world population. When you count the family members into it, then services and products for persons with disabilities actually have a great impact in the world, and we are talking – in development cooperation, we are talking about the sustainable development goals and the overarching objective of leaving noone behind. So we can only achieve the sustainable development goals if we leave noone behind, and that means also we have to look into the specific needs of persons with disabilities and make sure that they can fully participate in everything what we are doing.

DEBRA: 6:53

Right. Well, powerful. Powerful statement. I know that a lot of efforts are now starting to be made to make sure that we're including– right now, the UN is calling it people who are ageing, which I think is all people, but anyway... But I know that Ambassador [Diagos] is working on the global initiative for ageing and creating a convention on ageing. I was just curious if you all have explored how those two populations come together. And I'm not trying to... I know that you all have done this. That's one reason why I want to bring it up, but I was just curious if you all have been thinking about the different communities. And you don't have to just do it from the ageing community, Bernd, because I know you're looking at all – making sure all people are included. But how are you getting your hands around society continuing to say, oh, and don't forget this group. Don't forget this group. Don't you forget us. I mean, there's a lot of groups. It seems like it's a challenge for GIZ or even for large corporations that are trying to understand how to meaningfully include us.

BERND: 8:03

Yeah. Yeah, absolutely. It is a challenge, and we are having these discussions of course also in GIZ. It is a challenge, but I think there is no other way than looking into the needs of particular groups or subgroups because our world, our population is diverse, and we have to reflect in our approaches also the diversity of the – call it beneficiaries or customers or whatever, we are serving. That's extremely, extremely important, and it is complex, yeah, but there is... for me, there's no other word, especially when we talk about development cooperation, and we want to engage in development work to the public good. Then we have to look into, yeah, everybody's needs and make sure that everybody also can contribute to development, whether it's social or economic development. Yeah. But, I mean, I can give you an example from my previous work in Cambodia. Because in Cambodia actually when we worked with the government, with the Ministry of Health in improving the healthcare system, we find out that persons with disabilities and the elderly, or older people, have very little access to the public healthcare system. So they were the most neglected groups in society when it comes to accessing public healthcare services. There were not even services, specific services, for them in place, you know. For instance, ENT services or diabetes services were not even in place there, so we had to work a lot with the providers and with the clients to create awareness that there is groups and societies which have no chance actually to access services. Also, a lot of stigma and discrimination in the system. So we have been working actually with the different groups, bringing the groups together and creating awareness also of, on the one hand, the needs of persons with disabilities and older persons, and also sensitize on the other side, the providers, the healthcare providers. So here we looked into both subgroups, that was your question, Debra. We can't see you any more. But we looked into both subgroups and found out, actually, that the challenges in the system are quite similar.

DEBRA: 10:42

Yeah, I apologise that I'm going in and out. It's like... I will be honest, I would like to blame it on my WiFi, but when I'm hitting chat to tell Neil it's his turn, I accidentally hang myself up. Just saying [unclear]. Sorry about that.

NEIL: 10:58

There's a good accessibility thing right there, by having the right kind of size of touch points to be able to do this stuff. Because I don't think your fingers are particularly fat either. I think you –

DEBRA: 11:12

It's terrible. I've done it twice now, so, yeah. So sorry that I don't know how to stay on the call, Bernd.

NEIL: 11:20

It's OK.

DEBRA: 11:22

I just thought I'd be honest!

NEIL: 11:25

That's fine. So... And we were covering for you. We were blaming Starlink, but there you go. But I think it's really interesting because whilst the needs are very similar, and often many of the older people that have these needs are – would fall into the classification of disability, they often don't identify as having a disability. And so I think that sometimes starting a new initiative that they identify with is the only way to reach them.

BERND: 12:00

Yes.

NEIL: 12:01

But, at the same time, we need to sort of bring the two together so that we don't dilute the work or diverge too much because I think that when we do that, that causes issues in itself. I want to go back a little bit to the stuff you talked about, sort of in terms of international development, because I think that the work that you're doing – and that it's inclusive and it's tied to the sustainable development goals, because I think those issues are a really good example of soft power, right. So... And in a noncynical way because a lot of time, people associate, you know, overseas development and funding for governments is something that is purely cynical. But I know from working with you that there is a great deal of altruistic intent in the work that you're doing in GIZ. You genuinely wish to help societies improve and to benefit from this stuff. So rather than, you know, building bases or tying people to, you know, contracts for radar or whatever, not that the British would ever do that... I can say that about my own government. So what is it that sort of within the – you mentioned that you – as GIZ, you do work for BMZ. So BMZ, if you could explain for our international audiences, the ministry, is that correct?

BERND: 13:44

Yes. It's the German Federal Ministry for Economic Cooperation and Development. A very long name. We call it Development Ministry short.

NEIL: 13:56

Right. And is your mission driven by their mission, or are they the ones that are setting the altruistic intent, or is this something that is within the DNA of GIZ itself, do you think?

BERND: 14:14

You mean disability inclusion?

NEIL: 14:16

Yeah. Well, no, I mean disability inclusion is altruistic, right. But I think that you're doing other work as well, like genuine development, societal development work. I've seen, you know, lots of the other projects you're doing as well, and I'm always impressed by how little it's tied to, you know, political stuff and how much of it is genuinely altruistic. So I was wanting to applaud that and, you know, to understand how– where that drive comes from.

BERND: 14:55

I mean, it's a very good question because GIZ, I think, is unique in the way we are organised. We are private, actually a private entity, but we are working on behalf of the government. But we are different, for instance, to the development agencies in the US or in Great Britain which are much more, let's say, politicallyled. So we are commissioned by the government. So we are commissioned based on a proposal which we develop and submit to the government. So this is the framework of our work, and this is, yeah, the framework also of our budget. But within – when it comes to implementing this project, we have quite some flexibility, quite some freedom to enter cooperations with different actors, and, let's say, also to set the tone in terms of implementation, because GIZ is an implementing organisation. So the ministry is in charge of political stewardship. They give over political guidance. They set the political priorities. And we are in charge of implementing them. So it's also up to us, let's say, to propose to the ministry convincing concepts for implementing this political agenda. And I can give you an example. I mean, all the cooperations, the fantastic work, Neil, we are doing with you on digital inclusion is such an example. It was developed between us, between you, Neil, and me, first of all. Over the last couple of years, we have had two successful ICT for inclusion challenges which we call them. The first one focussing on inclusive education in Africa, and the second one on mitigating the impact of climate change on persons with disabilities in India. So this was not proposed by the ministry. This was our own idea to do this. We developed it together. We proposed it, of course, to the ministry. They liked it. They were also involved in it. Then we teamed up with the Zero Project team. Now we are part of the Zero Project Impact Transfer programme. So this is our, let's say, the management flexibilities we are having. And that's also what I like, by the way, in my job Because it's still quite practical, and we have a lot of management possibilities to steer the project in one or the other direction. Also, we can basically – we can work in different fields as well. So we can also choose to work in the area of digitalisation, economic empowerment, governance, rural development, whatever call it, health and social protection because inclusion matters everywhere.

DEBRA: 17:58

Yeah, right. So you... I know that you were just talking about the collaborations that you'd done with players like Zero Project and, you know, Atos, and I know that we talked about something you're going to do with Enable India next week. Why do you think it is so important right now in this new world... I think it's interesting, Bernd, that you started this in 2019, right before the pandemic took the world down. I mean, what interesting timing for you to come in our field. Thank you. But, you know, one thing that I'm starting to see is that as we put continued pressure, just speaking from the United States, as we put continued pressure on our corporate brands to include us – you'd better include us – but also other groups are also doing this, and then we mentioned the ageing and all of this stuff. It feels to me like things are shifting, and I would be curious if you feel this way and also Neil's impression of this as well. But it feels to me, I'm seeing leaders step up and say, all right, we're going to try to do this. We're going to try to help with what we're doing in GIZ. I know, OK, but Atos is also trying to do this. The Zero Project. You have all these groups. The Valuable 500. There's so many. I'm mentioning a few. Why is it important that we come together like we have not in the past? I would also say, I appreciate that large corporations like Atos and Microsoft and all the different groups that are out there. I appreciate what they're doing, but I also really appreciate that GIZ is stepping in now. And you have groups like Foundation, Zero Project, things coming in because we can sit here as a community and just sit and attack corporations for what they're screwing up and how they're doing it wrong, but I believe society is giving too many demands in too many different ways. It's very hard to wrap our hands around it. So do you believe or hope, Bernd, that the way of the future is by all of us working together more than what we've seen? We have seen some collaborations, but collaborations sometimes we see as the community are not very – always beneficial to us as a community. And I will not go there. I think we can all insert names there. But I want all efforts being made to [unclear] the impact to the communities that I care about. For example, that's one person. But how... You know, how important do you think, Bernd, it's going to be that we do a little better at collaborating than we've seen in the past?

BERND: 20:31

Absolutely. I fully agree with you, Debra. I'm very convinced that business and technology are very, very powerful forces on the planet that can drive global change. The private sector is critical to achieving the UN sustainable development goals, but they probably can't do it alone either. So we have to work together. We have to work in partnership. And that's why I'm a fan of driving the inclusion agenda collectively in a publicprivate partnership, with highly committed actors from the public and the private sector joining hands and invest together into digital inclusion and accessibility, for instance. And that's creating thousands of highly needed jobs for persons with disabilities in the world. I mean, we know that very few persons with disabilities actually have access – I mean, starting already with the education sector and the labour market, there's still a lot to do, and... Also, when we look at things like the accessibility of websites, I think it's only 3% of the most used websites on the internet which are accessible. Nine out of ten people with disabilities do not have access to assistive technologies such as... I mean, even simple things like eyeglasses, wheelchairs, prosthetic devices, hearing aids. And most of these assistive technologies even don't work for certain groups, so they get abandoned by the users because they don't meet their needs, or they haven't been designed according to– universal design standards are not developed with a user. So there's, you know, a lot of issues which I think we can tackle only together. There's a lot of... I think there's a lot of money in the system. There's also... To be honest, there's quite a lot of parallel work going on in the development context but, sure, also in the private sector, companies development, agencies doing their own thing, and we have to come together. I mean, they are excellent initiatives to strengthen disability inclusion in the world such as, you named them already, The Valuable 500, the global business and disability network hosted by the ILO. Companies like Atos, thanks to Neil, play a key role in here. I can also mention the global initiative for inclusive ICTs which advocate for the rights of persons with disabilities in the digital age. So there are some excellent initiatives, but the key for me is really how can we combine, further combine our forces and accelerate this momentum?

NEIL: 23:29

I fully agree. When we look at our corporate strategy and our programmatic strategy, we have three... I'm holding out four fingers. Three. Let's not confuse people. Three major areas, and one of them is what we call our connected ecosystem because, actually, we're part of an ecosystem. We can't do this alone, so we need to work with yourselves and others like GIZ. Plus, we need to work with organisations like ILO and Valuable 500. And, as you said, there is money in the system. You know, one of the things we need to get away from is the scarcity mentality by collaborating because when we have the scarcity mentality, that's when we don't collaborate because we're all trying to grab a piece of the pie because we're afraid that we won't have enough for the people that we care about. So I don't think that people are being greedy when they do this. I think that they are doing it for rational reasons in that they're afraid that they won't be able to attract the funding that they feel that they need to protect and support their loved ones and the people that they care about, but in doing so, it actually has the opposite effect. So that's why we need to work together. That's why as an organisation we are committed to collaboration. And then the other point that you raised about whether or not it's a shift, and I do think there has been a significant shift. I think that there are a number of things at play. Covid really changed how people viewed their own health, how they work. It made them question their values about certain things. And then we've also got a generational shift in the leadership of large organisations going on right now. Not just within my own organisation, but there's lots of younger leaders. In fact, I'm finding that I'm now working for and with CEOs that are younger than me, and that makes me feel frankly... Maybe I should go and join[Ambassador Diagos'] initiative as someone who is ageing. But they have different values, right? And it's... The younger generations are really keen on inclusion as a value. I didn't have to sell the idea of inclusion to our CEO. In fact, he said, these are my values, you know. I'm kind of irritated that you might even sell this to me because I already believe in it.

DEBRA: 26:18

Right.

NEIL: 26:19

So I think that that's driving the change significantly, and I don't think that that's going to go back, even though there may be pendulum swings politically from time to time. I think that, overall, the generational shift to understanding that this is an important thing is inexorable.

DEBRA: 26:41

I just want to ask one more question, why I took over the interview. I agree with everything you're saying, and what we've seen is a lot of money, as you said, Bernd, a lot of money that has been put in the system that the community doesn't always feel like that money is spent in a way that has impact on us. And we know that, and that's not a criticism. But it feels to me that the only way forward as we've talked about is to gather and collaborating and... But also, I think that people are going to have to sort of let go of things that aren't working any more, and that's very, very difficult for society to do. But I'm starting to see things that I really like. I mean, once again, I'm very proud to be an ambassador for Zero Project, but I say good things about them because I really appreciate the work that they've done. And you've mentioned the ILO and some of the others. There's so many groups that we didn't mention, but it just feels like the time of making it about us, it's all about me, it's all about me company surviving... I think those days are gone, and as I see people just really panicking over these intense times. I think the opportunity for us to say, maybe I haven't been thinking about this right. Because I'm in this field. I've always been trying to think differently, but even I... I recently tossed something to Neil to get some feedback, and boy he was mean about it. No, he was like, Debra, what are you doing? Blah, blah, blah, blah. I think we all are guilty of going back into that same old way of thinking about things, and even me that I try to think differently. So I think the opportunity for our community, from groups like you, from our corporate brands. Neil's been... He's been running with the global leadership for many years, and I appreciate him. He is my friend, but I do appreciate those efforts. I don't see it from all of the brands, so I appreciate that. But GIZ has such an important role to play and influences what groups like US Aid and others do by your innovative policy. So I think one thing that we struggle as a community to understand is, how do we contribute? How do we play? Because all of us want to be included. So I'll say, well, I guess it's great that you're bringing all these big companies into GIZ, but what about us little players, right? So I think that's the wrong question. I think the question is, OK, I see what you're doing. All right. This makes sense, you coming to together, bringing your money together, collaborating, focussing on the things we've asked you to focus on. But I think there is a confusion on how people participate. I'm not saying you have the answers, but I was just wondering if maybe you might try to talk about this a little bit before we close?

BERND: 29:21

Yeah. Yeah. Exactly, yeah. I mean, on the participation issue, Germany is hosting the Global Disability Summit 2025, the third global disability summit. And, actually, we have also been tasked to support the preparation with the three cohosts, which is Germany, Jordan, and the International Disability Alliance. So it's three cohosts. The summit will be hosted in April 2025 in Berlin. And this is a summit which is driven by the disability community. So we have two years' consultation processes organised by IDA with the disability community. And many, many of them will travel to Berlin to give their voice to speak out. So this is an opportunity. I mean, Germany has taken a special responsibility here to advance the issue of inclusion in the international development policy but also offering a platform for others to partner and to come in. And we are actually looking for partners with great ideas and willingness to cooperate and engage in partnerships with us to further promote the inclusion of persons with disabilities, especially in the global south because that's... these are the continents or the areas we are working in. And the initiatives or partnerships that are developing from now until 2025 could well be presented at the Global Disability Summit. So I think it's also a good timing to enter into a dialogue, to enter into partnership with German development cooperation, with GIZ, to strengthen disability inclusion worldwide. I mean, I really believe more than ever that we should look into the commonalities of all of us, the commonalities between the different actors because we share a lot of... I mean, we share more or less the same goal. We have a lot of things in common, but sometimes it's so difficult to come together. I mentioned it already. There's still a lot of parallel work, and this Global Disability Summit is another opportunity really to forge partnerships, to come together, and to set up alliances, publicprivate partnerships, in different areas and to use that platform. So we all want to create a future worth living. That's the vision of GIZ, and I think that's the vision we all share. A future without discrimination and fear, where everyone can live a life of dignity and freedom, having equal opportunities to essential services and goods, resources, education, technology. So we have all this in common, and then we have to work together to what's making it happen.

NEIL: 32:33

Fantastic. And delighted to be working with you on some of these topics. Now, aside from me breaching GDPR and handing out your phone number, how do people get in touch, people that are interested, get in touch or find out more information about the summit? So you said get involved. Is it do you have to go to the GIZ website?

BERND: 32:56

Not the GIZ website. There is a summit website which is hosted by IDA, the International Disability Alliance. We have – just a couple of weeks ago, we have uploaded a white paper. It's the first white paper actually for the Global Disability Summit 2025. So when you search for it, you will come to the Global Disability Summit home page. It's the same one from the previous two summits. The first one was in London. The second one hosted by Norway. So it's the same. Yeah, the same.

NEIL: 33:35

So that's – for those of you that are listening, it's globaldisabilitysummit.org.

BERND: 33:43

Yes. And we will also have a session in the upcoming GLAD network in Brussels in October where we also consult with partners around the Global Disability Summit.

NEIL: 33:55

Brilliant. Thank you so much, Bernd. It's always a pleasure. I need to thank our supporters, Amazon, and MyClearText for keeping us on air and keeping us captioned and accessible. So, looking forward to continuing the conversation on social media. Thank you.

BERND: 34:13

Thanks a lot, Neil and Debra. Thanks for having me.