Breaking Silence: Navigating the Complex Path to Disability Inclusion in the Workplace

Discover why tearing down the barriers to disability disclosure is more than a corporate responsibility; it's a journey toward true societal change. This week, Neil Milliken, Debra Ruh and Antonio Santos shed light on why individuals with disabilities often choose silence over sharing despite the increased acceptance of diversity in today's workplaces. The episode peels back the layers of this complex issue, looking at the societal challenges and job market uncertainties that can dissuade even the most confident from self-identification. We also examine how misconceptions about who is part of the disability community impact self-identification rates and consider the role of technology as an unwritten ally in supporting those with disabilities.

In a world where data shapes the future of inclusivity, we probe the importance of this information in bridging the disability pay gap. Just as the data-driven approach has helped narrow the gender pay gap, it could be the key to empowering disabled employees. Our discussion also scrutinizes the unexpected shortcomings in non-profits and charities, where advocacy for the disabled doesn't always align with inclusive practices. We call out the need for a corporate culture that doesn't just wear inclusivity as a badge but weaves it into the very fabric of its existence, creating systemic change that reflects the true diversity of our society.

Transcript

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>> Hello and welcome to AXSChat. It's just the Three Musketeers today. Uh, Deborah, Antonio and the fully paid up member of the Deborah Ruth fan club. That's me, Neil Millican. So, um, glad to be back. I skived off over Easter and left all of the hard work to Antonio and Deborah. So today we're going to talk about, uh, a topic that keeps coming up and that's about employee ID we, you know, how many employees identify as having a disability in the workplace? What are the incentives to being open about your disability? And also what are the the challenges and the impediments and the things that block people from feeling safe and comfortable to do so? Um, because I think there are many. Right. Um, we know that. A couple of weeks ago, we talked with Hillary Wolf and Boston Consulting Group, and she'd done this piece of research where they talked about the fact that most companies have a figure between about four and 7% where people have identified as having a disability, whether formally or informally, it's still way lower than the 25% that that identified anonymously, because they then felt safe to do so. So. Lots of companies really want to drive up the number of people with disabilities in their organizations, some because they have a genuine commitment, others because they have quotas. But Deborah and Antonia, we were having some conversations offline about this. What do you think are the barriers and also the, you know, the what are the initiatives that you're seeing? And do you think that some of these are going to be successful?>> Uh, and I'll start and, um, but I do want to thank Antonio for bringing this topic up by sharing a link with us. So, um, but I think I as everything is changing, and if you're in the world right now, you realize that things are pretty intense right now all over the world. Um, as things are changing, I think that question is shifting as well, because if you'd asked me that question a year ago as an American, I would say, uh, absolutely. We are moving forward. We are going to self-identify. We are coming together strongly. But. Or maybe even if you'd asked that question maybe four years ago, probably one year ago, that it would still be what I think it is now, which is right now. The market is shifting and changing so much. The people are getting laid off in record numbers. We see did we see a lot of societal issues? The suicide rates are higher than ever, ever before in the United States. And so, um, there's a lot of uncertainty. There's quite a lot of fear happening right now, um, in my beautiful country. And so I think that as that is happening, I think a lot of people, a lot of my peers and stuff are telling me that, um, this is not a time they really feel comfortable self-identifying. They feel a little bit too vulnerable to take that on. And I think this will shift and these times will shift and we'll move out of it and we'll be stronger for them. But I think right now, um, there's a lot of fear and uncertainty. Um, and, um, there's a lot of suspicions happening between, um, individuals, uh, employees and employers and candidates and employers. So I think just everything that's happening in the world with all of the intensity of it is affecting, um, if people want to self-identify or not. And the reason why I say that is because I'm, I'm trying to build a a billion person movement with billion strong. I'm trying to get people to proudly identify. And one more comment, then I'll turn it over to Antonio. But what I'm seeing is that as we try to have these really intense conversations about identity, so many people do not even know they are part of our community. People that have cancer, people that are diabetic, they they don't even know they're part of our community. If they don't even know they're part of our community, how can they self-identify? So I just see some just gigantic glaring problems that we we're trying to move past, like we've already solved them, but I don't think we have. So thank you so much, Antonio.>> No, the the the last point that you said is is very true. Many people, uh, no, they don't, uh, consider themselves or that they don't see themselves as as disabled. They see themselves more as having a health condition. Not they don't see it as a disability. So if we are able to facilitate the technology, made it available, regardless about who the companies have, we are making the the technology available for these people without having, you know, they will use it without having to identify that they have a disability because it's just there. They'll take advantage of it. This is something. And I was talking recently with some someone that traveled to, uh, that, uh, came to Germany, uh, a Mexican person that, uh, got, uh, moved to Germany and was telling me, you know, when I was, when I was, uh, adding to my CV that I had the disability, the. Uh, the the the person that was coaching me to get jobs in Germany was telling me, don't do that. You'll be immediately excluded. Some job seekers, some companies, they will see you as a liability, and they don't want you to go to the normal route to get the job. You might go to the other part, you know, when they offer jobs for people with disabilities, but they don't want to. They don't want to go to the normal process. So so don't put it there. And this person say, oh, I moved to Germany. I thought that this was a more open country than mine. Uh, and then I was surprised because it wasn't. So even so, I have even today I feel that I have to hide my disability. Otherwise I won't be promoted. I won't get the same opportunities as other people have because they they will see me. Oh, there is no Joanna, the disabled person that we hired. So. This is still a reality and we have people from different countries, from different origins working everywhere. No, we have Portuguese people working in Ireland. We have no Mexican people working in Germany. We have Indian people working in the United States. So there's a lot of elements that contribute to this. So I think it's I think if we really want to move forward at enterprise and making business inclusive, we we need to start, consider, give, to give away from this a little bit and make sure that whatever we deliver to people, it's available to everyone. Not we are not not just, oh, we need to count the number of licenses. We need to count the number of licenses, because, uh, and we are not really sure if we have 5 or 6 users who are visually impaired. So we need to stop that metrics and and counting that.>> I agree.>> I agree.>> So I think we always undercount when we try and count. Um, but the natural instinct of managers everywhere is to ask, what are the numbers? Right. It doesn't matter whether it's disability or finances or whatever. It's like, what are the numbers? What? You know, what do I need to look at? How do I quantify it? Right. And so when you go well it depends. Right, right. You then you know, you've got a credibility gap and you've got a very limited time window in which to close that credibility gap, to be able to explain why it depends and why you don't have numbers. Because frankly, if you're in business, you're expected to be on the numbers. So, um, so I think that. Even. Even when we know that there are challenges with self ID, there are challenges that are related to culture and safety and all the rest of it. There still needs to be some. Ability to estimate what the demand is going to be and everything else for financial planning and logistical planning purposes. Right. So I can understand the desire for this stuff. At the same time, I fully understand the. Reasons like Antonio stated, why people don't want to self ID the impediments to declaring. So we have a colleague in Germany. That is. Uh, the star of documentaries about disability at work. You know, that's been on national TV. That is the worker's council rep for disability in the in the, you know, the union that specializes in accessibility, that has a very visible disability, that refuses to register as having a disability because he doesn't want to be seen as taking advantage of the system. Okay. Right. So so yeah, it really does get complex. So I think sometimes being able to sort of reference those cases makes the managers sit back and go, ooh.>> Well and Neil I want to I would, I would be, I would ask you a really hard question because and really both to you and Antonio, but specifically to you, Neil, because you have a really large team global team that you're managing. Um, and so it I think we're counting wrong. And maybe the word counting is even wrong because I, I 100% with what, what I agree with what Antonio said. And of course you do as well Neil. Well, golly, what if we made everything accessible? People? What if we made everything accessible? We made everything accessible. We wouldn't have to count as much if we had the ability to. I'm working for you. I've worked with you for years. And then, um. I didn't tell you that I have say, miss, but now I'm having mobility. What if I could handle this myself as an employee? As an adult employee working for you? I just think that we are looking at the wrong KPIs. We're looking at this wrong. We're saying corporate employers or any employers, you need to include us. Now. We're not going to tell you who us are. And and it's all of us at some times. Not to mention that we are an aging, dramatically aging society that doesn't want to retire. I mean, these are really, really big, big issues. And I don't feel that we are talking about them in a powerful way, which is one reason why I hope that the that the three of us will do more of these kind of calls, because we are experts. We are experts in these fields. I think having the three of us talk about these really hard, complex problems add value to the audience. But I would say to you, Atos or any other corporation, is there a better way to measure this?>> Okay, so so I mean, I'm going to come back with like a multi pronged answer here because. I agree that we should make stuff accessible, but how do you understand the needs because of your range of disabled colleagues and users. If you don't have the discussions because not all disabilities are obvious and not all disabilities, you know, and some disabilities are better served in terms of funding and knowledge and technology than others. So we need data on that, and we need people to come forward on that. So we can't just go, oh, we'll make everything accessible. For whom? Right. So that's my first point. So we need people to be able to come forward on that. For other things we need data. Right. So for. An example we need. We have a desire and a stated aim within an ethos that we want to close the disability pay gap. Write in, and we want to do that in the same way that we're addressing the gender pay gap. But we can't do that unless we know. Who our employees are that have disabilities and we can look at salary data. We can't, you know, I get.>> It, I get it, but that's why we're all doing it today. Is that the right way to do it?>> Right.>> So I know, you know from.>> Research that like that from disability charities that the people that have come forward with disabilities generally are lower paid. Right. Firstly, we're less employed. And secondly, when we are employed we're lower paid. Right. So obviously we can address for the population that have declared, um, and that are out there and we can, we should, but we're only scratching the surface. So there are incentives right, to why you might want to come forward. Now. Then it comes down to other things like who needs to know that data. Right. You can you know, you know, do you declare, uh, you know, anonymously. Do you declare in an HR system, can you rescind that declaration? You know, it's all of these kind of questions that then come out, you know, so yes, you can do an anonymous survey and that will give you some idea of what the population is. And people will more likely interact like they did with BCG, because they know that it's not going to be tied to them. But that doesn't give you the same element and useful data as being able to go. Actually, you know, these are our employee segments. And actually most of our employees that have come forward with disabilities are in the lower paid jobs or, you know, haven't had a promotion in, you know, X number of years or in the lower quartile of pay for their ranking and stuff like this. So if we want real equity, we, we, we need some data now. Now that's an incentive for people.>> But we've been we've been doing so.>> Many more disincentives. There's so many more things about society. And um, you know, the fear that they may be discriminated on by colleagues that, you know, whilst you have policies, it doesn't mean that humans don't behave badly, that yes, we may be doing it wrong, but I don't know, I.>> Didn't I didn't.>> Say that, Neil. Neil, I didn't say no.>> No, I didn't mean me.>> I didn't mean me.>> Or Atoll or whatever. But by trying to count, by trying to get a grip or a handle on things.>> I just think.>> We're. Maybe we're asking the wrong questions because I know. Yeah, here in the United States with our Ada, I'll just say this, Antonio. But, um, it is such a large, large, complicated group that at the end of the day, it makes it I think the people that actually need the support are being left out because of the sheer volumes of the numbers. But go ahead, Antonio.>> I think that the, you know, one thing is gender pay gap. The other thing is disability pay gap. They are they have completely they are two completely different subjects with completely different complexities, with completely different ways how people look into society. You know, we are no, no, we are we are on this call and we know there are two men and a woman. It's clear. Right? Right. It's not the same when we talk about disability, right? No. It's different. It's hidden. Uh, on the other element is we have plenty of demographic data. 64% of people in the United States where something like this, 64 it's it's usually it's very similar across different societies that everyone needs some kind of a visual aids. There are other elements, data on demographics, on disability. So. If when I go into a company office, I don't leave society behind. Me. So there's not really a business life. Companies are not separated from society. They are part of society.>> So they reflect the point.>> They reflect, they reflect society. So the the same people with disability that exist in the world, they exist within companies.>> Right.>> Agree that no, there is not really, you know, oh, I work for a big company. So, uh, I'm out of the other world out there where there's people with disabilities. So we need to recognize that in the in large organizations, we people with disabilities are there as they are in society. So here we have the number. So we need to look at I think we start using the name of demographic numbers. We need to we need to do it. You know we need to be more proactive looking at the demographics and being bring those numbers to the equation. And we need to educate people and we need to educate people in business. The fact that they don't consider this, it doesn't mean that they know what they are doing. You know, maybe.>> They think we've been.>> Trying to educate people for a long time. But I would also say here, one thing that we've showed the audience is this is a very complicated topic. If you are a director, like a leader like Neil is trying to manage all these moving parts, it's very, very difficult. I think we should all come out and identify who our what our lived experiences are, but that's easy for me to say. I'm not somebody that might be afraid that there's a big layoff coming. Are they going to use this? I mean, you know, I just want to express people have to do what they feel comfortable with when they feel comfortable with. But I agree with what you're saying, Antonio, and that we must continue to educate. I remember when we were having our first conversations almost ten years ago about doing Access Chat and we're like, okay, well, I don't think we're going to have enough to talk about for very long. Yeah, we're almost ten years in and we're in some ways we've had such amazing progress. We, you know, the team that you have built, Neil, it's an it's incredible. The team I've seen other brands build, so many brands have stepped up to the plate. So we have so much to celebrate. We have so much more to do as well. It's become even more complicated and I, I think that I wish if I were a younger woman, if I'd known I'd had a disability, that I would have come out and identified with it, but I probably would not have. I would have been afraid there was retaliation. So these are real issues, but we also want to make sure that we have these conversations because once again, we're all experts in our field and we're saying, wow, this is intense. Go ahead. And Tony.>> I think, you know, you and Neil have been at events, international events where people with disabilities are represented by non-disabled people.>> Well. But do we know.>> For sure.>> Though? We don't know for sure because 70.>> Yeah yeah yeah. No. Yeah.>> True. But but but they don't they don't identify them. They're not.>> Identified. Good point.>> And and they go and represent I'm here to talk on behalf of the organization that represents disabled people in my country. This still happens. You know I know countries where that's the case.>> So I was party to a really interesting conversation yesterday. So I was on an advisory board call. And one of the people who we is a mutual contact, has worked for some very large charities, was talking about the fact that actually you would expect those places as work places to be somewhere where people did feel psychologically safe to disclose their disability. But the disclosure rates were lower than in business. Right, right, right. And there were there were.>> No.>> Interesting drivers for that. Right? So yes, the first was one that I kind of get right. And that was, well, we're all disabled around here, so just get on with it and don't don't bother bothering anyone else because we're all the same kind of thing. So get over yourself. And the second one was also, if your disability wasn't the one that the charity cared about, okay, you were kind of like a second class citizen.>> Yes, I've.>> Seen that as well. And I've seen. Oh, and it's ridiculous. I've seen so many organizations, blind organizations, deaf blind organizations that they don't hire people that are blind or people that are deaf, blind or people that it's amazing how often this happens, amazing how this happens. And I say it all the time. And that's why once again, we're creating billions strong because we also want to hold our own selves accountable. We do, and in a kind, empathetic way. But it's not fair that we are not. The community is not walking the walk that we're telling you, brand, you better do it. And then we're not doing it.>> I mean.>> If you work for a major visual impairments charity in northern Europe, you couldn't work in the accounts department because the software package that they bought for accounting was completely inaccessible.>> I know it's amazing. And that happens so much. And and most of these brands will not put their CEOs or executives will not have I just I you're telling me you cannot find anyone anyway, it's there's so much stuff happening and.>> This opportunity will just continue.>> To make it better. Right. And we're not trying to be all negative. It's just these are very, very complex topics. And that's and that's why we we want to talk about them and talk about them authentically.>> Yeah. So? The other thing that I thought was interesting and I, you know, Antonio was right, uh, about the actually genders, gender equity issues are actually really much easier than the complexity of disability equity issues because of the multifaceted intersectional nature of disability. Um. And. I look at that and I just think, yeah, okay. So we've got we've still got a long way to go. The fact that there's willingness to, to start addressing these issues, uh, encourages me somewhat. Uh, um, what I'm also seeing is that. When you do start creating a culture where some of the senior people start self guiding, that has a sort of an effect where other people then start to feel safe. So we've seen it happening interestingly, where, you know, because we're in lots of different countries, so we we see very different levels of maturity and cultural attitudes towards disability depending on where people are in the world. But but interestingly, in one of our Eastern European locations, one of the senior leaders decided that this was something that they really wanted to get behind. And they started, uh, you know, creating accessibility culture and bringing people on. And then people started, um, having the conversations and senior leaders started actually talking about their own, um, lived experience and started coming out of the woodwork. And it's amazing how many people then did. Yeah. But it's it takes absolutely ages to build up that momentum. Right. And then you can have this, I think snowball effect where you gather the momentum and it becomes, you know, faster, right. What I do think. But you change the leader. You can immediately undo that.>> Right. We've seen that happen. Yeah.>> Yes, yes. That's that that that was what I'm going to to go now is that. No. People are comfortable. Oh you belong. Suddenly the leader changes. Now you don't belong. Right. And what's the what's the outcome then and then mental health depression department.>> Oh that.>> Woke stuff. Yeah.>> Yeah.>> So so so that becomes then. So this is where you know, it becomes difficult because we have a lot of great people, um, uh, in the accessibility field, a lot of accessibility leaders and a lot of great sponsors in business leaders that that try and create culture. Um, but what we but what we need is something that becomes embedded, right? It becomes part of a company's DNA rather than the, you know, the the white knight syndrome, because we can't go in and, you know, you can't be the savior all of the time. And if that person leaves you, don't you want to create? Uh, in an environment and a culture that is more than one person that that lives beyond. Um, and so I think that that's how do you create that sort of sustainability. Um, and also resilience of inclusivity when. There are lots of things going on, particularly in North America right now, where there is pushback and retrenchment from these topics. So yeah, because I talk to a lot of people in leadership positions in Dei and stuff in North America, and they're really nervous, not just for their job, but.>> For, oh.>> Yes, for their lives. And you know, what it means for them, because they now feel like they've got a target on their back.>> Yep yep, yep. It's pretty intense. I um yes, it's very intense times for so many people. Um, but also, maybe we have to walk these intense times, like we have a choice so that we can actually, you know, get better and better. That's, um, because sometimes you have to explain what the problems are. We weren't. You know, that's one reason why we wanted to have this conversation. It's very complex.>> Yeah.>> And it's shifting and moving and it's like, oh, yeah, if we. Okay, just stay still for a second. We'll try to catch up with you. No, no.>> And and as we know, uh, particularly on US multinationals, the, uh, inclusion initiatives, they start from the US and they, they are allowed to other countries. That's usually how it happens. So if people in us are afraid that would escalate to other countries in terms of initiatives. So everyone is going to be affected. No they're not. Yeah. They're not going to create an island in UK or in France. It will affect everyone.>> It will, it will.>> So I think what's interesting is I see people actually. Planning for. Offshoring their Dei initiatives to UK to Europe as a precautionary measure. Um, because of the politics going on. Um, and.>> Um, and.>> You can't blame them for trying to protect themselves.>> So, so I.>> Think there's some strategic shifting of of initiatives centers of gravity to, to.>> Europe. I'm also.>> Seeing that.>> As well.>> And not just Europe, but. Yep, but.>> Not just Europe.>> But I know, but it's it is shifting. And I keep telling fellow Americans, are y'all seeing what's happening? Did you see what happened here? Did you what? Who? Um, yeah.>> So I think that that's that's interesting, but what? Antonio. What? There is still the truth in what Antonio says is that if they're US based companies, they will at least be a diminution of the funding. So the, the pipeline of, of goodies from head office is going to become quite dry. So then it again it's, it's how do you, uh, how do you survive the, the drought? Because I think, you know, we, we go through feast and famine and we may be just about to enter a famine period.>> Maybe, but.>> We'll help you access chat. We're going to give you all good advice all along the way. So keep coming back here. And, um, you know, we'll thank our sponsors, but keep coming to us and we're going to help try to navigate you through what we're seeing. And that's why we're coming from all these different cultures to I think that's why x axis Chat, I think, has become a more powerful voice because of everything we've done. Um, and I think it's needed right now in these times.>> So thank thank you and I do I so I sounded a bit too negative there because I actually I'm, I'm quite optimistic about some of the. Disability inclusion initiatives and the alignment with, uh, CSR and sustainability rather than Dei, that mean that this is going to be driven forwards by business in a slightly different way. So, um, it's not all doom and gloom. Um, but we do need to always be looking at the horizon, thinking about our strategies, adjusting to the changing times. Right. And and you know, I'm sure there's loads of really good books on how to do that on, um, on a certain book website. So that means that I, it's time for me to thank our sponsors, our friends at Amazon for keeping us on air and for, um, captions and support with, uh, all of the other accessibility from Microtech. So until next time. Thank you very much.