What if the accessibility challenges we face today could be solved by a crowdsourced platform and an engaging, educational app? Join us on Access Chat as we welcome Peter Gibson and Anubha Singhal, the co-founders of EnableMeAccess, who are on a mission to revolutionize accessibility in India. Hear Peter's deeply personal journey as a carer for his wife, which unveiled the glaring gaps in accessibility standards within public spaces and hotels. Discover how these experiences inspired the creation of simplified data sheets and a gamified app designed to spark empathy and awareness in younger generations. Anubha shares her unique perspective and her pivotal role in this transformative initiative.
In this episode, we also feature an inspiring architect living with mobility impairment, who, through his professional insights, sheds light on the importance of universal design. Learn about the grassroots, crowdsourced approach EnableMeAccess employs to foster inclusivity, and their commitment to transparency and collaboration with the government. We delve into the organization's not-for-profit structure, their innovative strategies for sustainable operations, and how they are democratizing accessibility information. Understand the impact of their efforts to train individuals to accurately assess and report on building accessibility, empowering communities with the knowledge needed to create a more inclusive future.
What if the accessibility challenges we face today could be solved by a crowdsourced platform and an engaging, educational app? Join us on Access Chat as we welcome Peter Gibson and Anubha Singhal, the co-founders of EnableMeAccess, who are on a mission to revolutionize accessibility in India. Hear Peter's deeply personal journey as a carer for his wife, which unveiled the glaring gaps in accessibility standards within public spaces and hotels. Discover how these experiences inspired the creation of simplified data sheets and a gamified app designed to spark empathy and awareness in younger generations. Anubha shares her unique perspective and her pivotal role in this transformative initiative.
In this episode, we also feature an inspiring architect living with mobility impairment, who, through his professional insights, sheds light on the importance of universal design. Learn about the grassroots, crowdsourced approach EnableMeAccess employs to foster inclusivity, and their commitment to transparency and collaboration with the government. We delve into the organization's not-for-profit structure, their innovative strategies for sustainable operations, and how they are democratizing accessibility information. Understand the impact of their efforts to train individuals to accurately assess and report on building accessibility, empowering communities with the knowledge needed to create a more inclusive future.
Hello and welcome back to Access Chat. I'm delighted that we're joined today by Peter Gibson and Anubha Singhal, who are from EnableMeAccess. You're both co-founders, but let's start with Peter. So can you tell us a little bit about background and what you're doing with EnableMeAccess?
Speaker 2:
Yeah Well, this is going to make An uber laugh. To cut a long story short, I talk too much, so I'm gonna I'm gonna really cut it very short as I as I can. Basically, my experience is through being a carer for my wife uh, she developed a condition that paralyzed her slowly and uh, traveling around around India, we found it very, very difficult. And even in international group hotels I was finding we're not getting ramps, we're not getting beds at the right height, we're not getting bathrooms with doors wide enough to get into there with a wheelchair, etc. Etc. And whenever you call people and you said, do you have an accessible bathroom? Do you have? You know, is the restaurant accessible? That was, you know, inevitably a five-star hotel or whatever the. The answer was yes, but when you got there, you know it was no. So then I looked into, you know, I was trying to understand how this could be and I found out that the uh, all these hotels and so on, they follow the Indian standards supposedly.
Speaker 2:
And when I looked into the standards I realized that they were not following the Indian standards, which are very close to ISO. And over the years I realized that nobody was reading the standards and when I looked at it I could understand why. It was quite badly written and very badly illustrated and it's a 1,600-page document. And then the government came out with guidelines which were badly transcribed from the National Building Code into a fairly badly put together document which also nobody knew about through lack of communication or you know many many reasons.
Speaker 2:
So I thought the best thing that I could do if I wanted to make some kind of change, was to produce little data sheets, cheat sheets you could say, on each subject. So that was stairs, lifts, ramps, toilets, and a single page all the code, each clause from the code that mentioned that, and then give an illustration when there wasn't an illustration in the National Building Code I've created. So I've been using those for years and they're quite well known in India. We get a lot of praise for them because it just simplifies, it makes it easier. But then you know, the situation in India is that there's a lot of people talking to each other.
Speaker 2:
you know a lot of NGOs and government and so on talking to each other about accessibility and so on, and so on, talking to each other about accessibility and so on and so on, and preaching to the converted and so on, and I realized that this is not going to work. It's going to take another 100 years for this to filter down.
Speaker 2:
And wherever I went, where I saw actual, proper, you know, accessibility in the form of universal design, and so on was where there was somebody who was affected or somebody that they cared about was affected, so you'll see a hotel group very accessible, why the owner of the hotel group, his son, is disabled, he's using a wheelchair, and this you see over and over again. So, in my mind, the most important thing that we need to do is create the empathy that is there automatically for carers and their families in the general public, and the way to do that is to communicate to much younger people, because what we, what he found is when we're dealing with government officials and so on, they're in their 50s, their 60s, getting close to retirement, and they don't want to learn anything, not interested, and they don't care. And you know, much more effective would be to start from the bottom and work your way up. Start with children, start with students studying architecture and so on.
Speaker 2:
So what we are doing now this year is quite transformation. We are creating an app which is going to completely democratize accessibility, the understanding of accessibility, the learning that is required, learning of the standards and so on, in a very, very easy-to-use app that will basically take them systematically through any subject that they want to learn about, and I've been used as an example. There's some language learning apps which are gamified, and so on. That's the kind of route that we're going to take. It's all going to be tokens and badges and so on for anything that they've let's say they've learned about surfaces on steps you know being right. You've understood that. They've tested, verified that they've understood the subject by doing a multiple choice question.
Speaker 5:
And Peter, I think what we should do here because, first of all, this is really an amazing story and amazing progress. So let's, I think, let us come into this conversation, because we want to really dig in a little bit more.
Speaker 3:
Yeah.
Speaker 5:
And I want to understand. For example, we want to turn it over to your co-founder. But also one question I'm going to have right away is are we talking right now? You're kicking this off in India, correct?
Speaker 2:
Yeah, that's correct.
Speaker 5:
All right, cool, and excuse me for interrupting, but we want to ask you a whole bunch of questions and so, yeah, but this is a really amazing story, so excuse me for interrupting you.
Speaker 2:
Great, so go ahead and ask some questions. That'll be more interesting.
Speaker 5:
Yes, oh yeah, we've got it. But first of all let's meet your lovely co-founder, yes.
Speaker 1:
So, anubha, please do tell us a bit about how you came to work with Peter, because you said you joined after Peter had founded this, and so what's your role in Enable Me Exit?
Speaker 3:
Okay, thank you. Thank you so much, peter, and I feel like as just listening from him, this is so exciting on what he had started. And so, as an architect I was, and also a person with disability myself. I live with a mobility impairment, so I'm an ambulant disabled who has difficulties climbing stairs without a support or any elevated paths, whether a slope. So I do use handles quite often in my life, so I do use handrails quite often in my life.
Speaker 3:
So the journey has been quite like a roller coaster where I started my architecture and soon after starting my architecture I got diagnosed with this condition, which is a rare condition in understanding how the infrastructure plays a role, because to me everything was so new that at that time I had no idea that it's the infrastructure that is limiting me to do so many things. But slowly, when I was designing, I could realize, and when I got into understanding a little bit about universal design, I could see that there is so much more that can be done to give access to so many people out people there out who are locked in their homes, actually working along with a group of a few more muscular dystrophy people who had been progressed with their condition to a stage where they're now using a wheelchair. So we all went together, were organizing a lot of events. I could really relate when I was actually trying to fix a restaurant which has an accessible toilet or trying to find an event venue which is accessible to organize a population of around 20 to 30 people who are wheelchair users. So that was my first lived experience of going through the troubles with infrastructure and slowly when I came cutting this story short so slowly when I came into the field, I was trying to find people who can guide me through this journey.
Speaker 3:
There were architect professors. I was doing my thesis on the subject but hardly anybody knew about the subject and nobody like even taught us anything on accessibility or universal design. So I used to hear from my professors that why do people with disabilities need to come out After completing my master's and everything when I was getting into the industry. So around two, three years later I found Peter and during a training program and I was really, really excited to see the work that EnableMeAccess is doing and my journey went from being an employee to a director and how we finally started afresh again and it has been really, really interesting for me and I feel like it has a perfect platform where we align with this vision of, firstly, educating people on the subject and spreading the right knowledge about the standards to as many important stakeholders, and we do this, as Peter said, as a bottom-up approach.
Speaker 2:
Yeah, crowdsourcing and crowd learning is much. It is so much more effective in India. Unfortunately, a lot of the stakeholders become actually gatekeepers, and this is not the right way to go about things.
Speaker 5:
That's very impressive.
Speaker 1:
We have discussed gatekeeping numerous times over the years during the blog, so I think that this is not a unique challenge to India by any means, but it's certainly something that happens quite a lot in the sector and doesn't help overall inclusion, for sure, and doesn't help overall inclusion, for sure. So you talked a little bit about the work that you're doing in terms of the app and gamification and so on, but are you also doing other things as well, because you've been established a while? You're working on the app. Yeah, it says you offer services and everything else. So how are you, how are you funding this, this work? You say you're crowdsourcing and everything else, but how are you sustaining this? Because it's important work and and you still need to live.
Speaker 3:
So we are a Section 8 company and if we talk about Section 8 means not-for-profit Okay. Section 8 not-for-profit organization.
Speaker 3:
Yeah, it is as per the Indian Companies Act. So it's an organization where we do use fundraising as a tool for sustaining as well as we provide services. So we can take consultations for various services that we provide, which is around accessibility, consultancy and trainings. So I know it has been quite a difficult journey, especially for the fundraising part, and now we've come to a phase where we're slowly gaining momentum and this app is giving us a lot of hope with doing fundraising and showcasing our work in a better structured way. So also, collaborating with government has given us quite an edge when it comes to people trusting us to contribute for the work that we're doing and support us and join us. So, but still, I feel fundraising is not an easy job but, yes, it's going on well, slowly.
Speaker 1:
Okay, great. Yes and it's not easy and thank you for explaining what Section 8 is, because I didn't know that.
Speaker 2:
Yes, so you know being a not-for-profit is not easy in India. You know there's a lot of, but things are being shook up in India. There has been a rather bad reputation for NGOs in India in the past and the government has been sorting it out, making sure everything is transparent and where the money is being spent and so on. It's all being recorded and audited and so on, and that's kind of it's been very difficult for some NGOs and trusts and that's actually one of the reasons we chose to be a business is we want transparency, we want to come right from the get-go and that gives a lot of trust to what we're doing.
Speaker 2:
All the money that we take for the work. The people that are funding us can see quite clearly where that money is being spent. Well, as the ngo sector wasn't like that for a long time and it is now. You know the government is making sure, so that's a good thing. Um, but the the also the important thing for us is um about um, uh, kind of this. Uh, but also respect, now, when you're doing something of a high caliber and we're demanding of our employees to be working at a very high level.
Speaker 2:
It demands respect and when you run a business properly, all that kind of idea that, oh, you're not for profit, it's like a charity and you're just helping out people, and all this pity and all this nonsense, all that goes out of the way. All we're talking about. This is the product. This is how we're going to deliver it to you and in the end, the customer is paying for something that's of value to them, it's not a handout. So this is very important and we don't employ any volunteers.
Speaker 3:
Everybody has to be paid.
Speaker 2:
That's a strict rule in EnableMeAccess. So if we take people on as interns, they will be paid. Take people on as interns, uh, they will be paid, and um, so we're not running like a kind of um handout kind of giving, giving work for for nothing. They have to be performing, you know, like a valued employee. So that's, that's an important part of it. But the the main thing for us is reaching out to everybody who wasn't able to get the information. The government have an app which is for people to make complaints about buildings not being accessible, but that app itself doesn't explain what accessibility is. It doesn't give any clues. It's like Google giving push notifications. Is the restaurant wheelchair accessible? Who are you asking? Who are you asking?
Speaker 5:
I'm getting a little bit confused. Are you talking about the app you've created? Because?
Speaker 2:
are you talking?
Speaker 5:
about the app that you're creating? Yeah, or a government app? Yeah, there's. Are you talking about the app that you're creating? Yeah, or a government app?
Speaker 2:
Yeah, there's two different things. There's a government app called Sugami Abarit, which somebody can make a complaint about a building, and they can say the ramp is not good or whatever. All right, cool.
Speaker 5:
Thank you for the clarity.
Speaker 2:
In the making of that complaint there's no guidance to help the person explain what is wrong about the app. So if they're an untechnical person, it's not very useful information. That is a push to the respondent. What we're doing is something totally different. What we're doing is we're getting people who are trained to understand what is accessibility, to go and look at a building, make an assessment, and then they will submit that and that will be uploaded to a database that anybody has access to, including the government.
Speaker 4:
But you do that through crowdsourcing, correct? Correct yeah, and why does crowdsourcing seem to be working so well for you, and why?
Speaker 2:
does crowdsourcing seem to be working so well for you? Because those who want to do it can do it. They don't need to be certified by the government or by some authority or whatever, because it's such a systematic, step-by-step process. It's binary it's either this or that. It's something that is easy to do. It's extremely easy. It's just basically check boxes and then, when the app is finally released at the moment, we're using Google Forms and data sheets like checkbox sheets, but in the future, with the app, we're even going to be using AI to do measurements, so that the AI will be able to tell whether the step is six inches high or whether it's small, and then that'll simplify that aspect of taking measurements. But I would say a child who can use a measure tape would be able to use this app. So I mean, you could talk about even eight-year-olds being able to do this, because it's going to be very kind of very simple, systematic process, and so this democratizes the information.
Speaker 2:
It democratizes, let's say, somebody who is visually impaired or somebody who's a wheelchair user wants to know if such and such a building is accessible. They can actually request that somebody go and check that building and make sure that it's accessible, sure that it's accessible, and then we can then put that out to those who are, who have the app, who are in the area using geolocation, and ask them to say this building needs to be assessed, would you like to go and do the assessment? They'd be paid to do that assessment and then suddenly the person who needs that information will be able to have that. Of course it wouldn't happen immediately, but within two or three days they should be able to get that information, will be able to have that. Of course it wouldn't happen immediately, but within two or three days they should be able to get that information. So it's very, very powerful.
Speaker 2:
Even an establishment who wants to put a ramp in and so on, they want to let everybody know that they're a wheelchair accessible, they have an accessible toilet, whatever, they can even do a self-assessment using the app, and then that will be updated into the status panel. So each establishment or every building will have a status panel, and this is something that anybody can access. They can promote it on their website with a QR code click on this. This is our building, and then anybody who wants to see that they can see whether the mitigations and the facilities that have been provided are suitable for their use, and so this is something that's very powerful.
Speaker 5:
Is this something that you're hoping? That, with the app, that you will be able to tie it to what the government is doing With you know, I'm always very conscious of India having over a billion 500 million people.
Speaker 2:
And so.
Speaker 5:
I think a lot of us feel that India really is our future. I would be curious from you, anubi, if you know how. Do you think that your fellow Indians you know are going to accept this? Are you finding that is the culture ready to really include?
Speaker 3:
everyone, okay Okay. So it's a slow process, but definitely there has already been a push which has given through the government and as well as organizations like all of us here. So I feel still there is a lot of struggle. Even if I talk about my fellow architects who are around me, I go and ask them about accessibility. Fellow architects who are around me, I go and ask them about accessibility. So hardly anybody knows and even their interest to know about it sort of is not that much.
Speaker 3:
So what we're using is the tool of universal design, where we're trying to relate to the audience to a level that it is something that is. It is something that has to be uh beneficial, that has to be used by everybody at some stage in their life. So if we just talk about a household or anybody, like they definitely have their grand grandparents out there, they have somebody, uh maybe a child in the house or somebody who has met with an accident. So we are trying to relate with an audience so that they feel it as a necessity for themselves first and understand it as a concept which uh universally goes to designing spaces which are more human centric. So that's the approach we are going towards and I think I'm sure Peter will agree that we are not at all using even any disability in our context. We're not talking about any particular disability or even, in fact, using the word disability.
Speaker 2:
Yeah, the government has, you know, registered 21 disabilities, which is, you know, 21 diseases and conditions. It doesn't mean anything. You know somebody with MS that's on the list of 21. They might be quite capable of walking and doing so many things. Another person with MS can't get out of the bed and doing so many things. Another person with MS can't get out of the bed. So you know, just this whole kind of putting people in boxes and so on, it's just pointless.
Speaker 2:
So we don't talk about disability, we don't talk about that type of discussion. What we talk about is universal design. By the way, it's useful for somebody with a wheelchair. By the way, it's useful for somebody with a walking stick. Don't use race traction strips on a ramp because it's a trip hazard for people who are ambulant disabled. Maybe they're using a walker or something. So we talk about trying to make this. We're really aiming at the younger people, particularly architecture students, or maybe even high school students and so on, those who are going to be going into the world and making decisions in the next five to ten years, because really they're the people that are going to push for change. And what we found over and over again is that younger and particularly ladies. Lady architects, it seems like, are very tuned into this, very empathetic and very intelligent and pragmatic about it.
Speaker 2:
But we're not you know the sector that's least flexible, the elderly, let's say you know.
Speaker 4:
Peter, but don't you think that those older individuals are not going to be the ones that are going to benefit from all this in?
Speaker 2:
the future. They should be, but they don't have the imagination to realize it and, in fact, even people who are struggling, if you actually ask them, would it be easy for you? No, they have something called jugad. It means they have an attitude towards life like make do Somehow. We'll make do, chellege or jugad. Jugad means to make do with what you've got somehow. So that is a very strong cultural force in India to manage somehow, because for a long time most people were very poor and didn't have much resources, so they had to make do, and it was.
Speaker 2:
That kind of resilience is something that people are proud of. But when people have moved from their villages and they're basically massing up in these huge cities, that doesn't work anymore. So a new attitude is coming and it's very I suppose it's typical all over the world. Younger people are much easier to persuade, much easier to take on these ideas, they're much more flexible in their thinking and they've got better imagination. So they, you know, they can think oh yeah, that makes sense. My grandmother, grandmother, she's having difficulty. She slipped in the bathroom and and cracked her hip. Now he, that young person, was much more likely to say dad, let's put a handrail in there and then she can hold it, and then she won't. You know she won't slip again and expect to. You know, for some reason people's brains freeze after 40 or 50, I don't know which age group. No, no, no, I don't think so I disagree with you, not all of
Speaker 4:
our brains.
Speaker 5:
I think that's happening sometimes to all ages, but the reality is, I agree with you. I do think I have such hope for the younger generations. We just have to do a better job in our ages, some of the age at my age I'll speak for myself of a legacy building so that they can actually be successful, which is why I was glad that you know when we wanted to interview enable me that. You know we got both you, peter and Anuba, so so, but I do want to make sure. I know that we're almost at the end of our time here, but can you let us know how to find out more about Enable Me Access? I mean, do you have a website or you know where can people find out more about you? And I don't know, neil, if you wanted to have the final question when you think our sponsors too, but just wanted to ask y'all if y'all both comment on that.
Speaker 2:
Anubha.
Speaker 3:
Okay, so our website is wwwenableme-accesscom is wwwenableme-accesscom and we have. It's a very informative website where we have data sheets on each of the aspect of accessibility, all the elements, and we do put blogs and all the recent activities that we do. Then we are active on Instagram, we are active on LinkedIn and our pages are with the same name. As enable me access and youtube. Don't forget youtube we have a podcast weekly podcast currently that we are running on YouTube. It's called Deconstructing Accessibility and, yeah, that's quite important.
Speaker 2:
We have a few playlists there, One of them in YouTube. I did them a few years ago. We did using SketchUp. We created some animations on the basics of whether it's a lighting points or parking or whatever, so you'll see all of those.
Speaker 5:
I think, Peter, that I saw some of those being used in the UN in a presentation because I subscribe to that channel. I like deconstructing accessibility. I hadn't connected that dot Compliments.
Speaker 1:
Wow.
Speaker 2:
I like to tell my son.
Speaker 3:
My son is the host.
Speaker 2:
Yeah, he'll be happy to hear that, yeah, it seems to draw people in somewhat and I hope that they'll look at the other information that's in the YouTube channel. There there's some really simple little explainers about the different accessibility features like lifts and toilets and all the rest of it.
Speaker 1:
Yeah, youtube's a really useful tool for that. I'm a really terrible mechanic but with the help of YouTube I've managed to do a number of basic repairs to all sorts of things. You know, the DIY in my house would be a lot worse if it wasn't for YouTube telling me how to do stuff. So, and I think that that self-learning culture has been enabled by the internet and social media. So you know, I think, what you're talking about with the app and then encouraging people to sort of gamify it a bit will maybe accelerate some of that self-guided learning. So that sounds exciting. We are at the end of our allotted time today. Unfortunately, time flies. I do need to thank MyClearText and amazon for keeping us on air, keeping his captions um awesome, and we look forward to continuing the conversation on social media. Thank you so much, peter wonderful.
Speaker 2:
Thank you so much thank you so much for inviting thank you.
