AXSChat Podcast with Bianca Prins - Global Head of Accessibility at ING Bank

"I’m Bianca Prins, Global Head of Accessibility at ING Bank. I’m working on disability inclusion and an accessible ING for all. Ever since 2010 I’ve been working as an activist for disability rights in The Netherlands. My role was political advice impacting new disability legislation. In 2015 the UN CRPD was signed by The Netherlands, that year I started my journey at ING. I started with the disability hiring program ‘Unknown Talent’ as Environment and Social Risk Advisor within Global Risk. My European activities in Brussels, in my advocacy role, showed me the opportunities for disability Inclusion. When I got the question to write a plan for accessibility I jumped on, and before I knew I was pitching for our CIO and found my new role within ING. My world of disability inclusion really opened when I visited my first M-Enabling Conference in Washington. The possibilities I had been reading about became reality, meeting other accessibility leads in global businesses. It was also the moment to realize we’ve got a long road ahead. Because the European market differs quite hugely from the US market when we talk about accessibility and disability inclusion. Ever since, I’ve been working on the masterplan to roll out one global accessibility strategy for ING customer and employees. Making sure we include the disability community in our business and employment, both from a market perspective as well as hiring the best avaible talents.

Key advice: Just start with projects as you go, as we did with the accessible card in 2017. After a small test with ING customers we got advice improving our card, and this led ING Netherlands to launch the first accessible ING debit Card in April 2020.

Key lesson: accessibility is not just HR; accessibility belongs all over the place!

My biggest question: the effect Corona brings to accelerate accessibility and disability inclusion, and risks when business do not include disability inclusion?"

Transcript

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Neil Milliken: Hello and welcome to access chat. I'm delighted that we've got a regular from our community on today. BIANCA prints, who is the global head of accessibility at i n g bank in

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Neil Milliken: The Netherlands but responsible obviously globally so Bianca. We've been chatting for years and your regular on access yet, but please tell us about your role and what you're doing within i n g to

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Neil Milliken: Spread accessibility throughout the organization.

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Bianca Prins: This is last one because I was actually figuring it sort of inventing the wheel, of course, like we all did.

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Bianca Prins: But on the other side.

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Bianca Prins: We are looking at

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Bianca Prins: Two approaches. At the same time, where we build strategy and policy.

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Bianca Prins: Supporting an accessible bank for all which takes time, especially, making sure that it's in all parts of the organization and at the same time, we just go with flow.

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Bianca Prins: Projects coming up. We work on them. And that's how we got for example in 2017 we started with an idea to see if it's possible to create an accessible card for

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Bianca Prins: For people with physical disabilities. We did the testing sequence. And in the end, and to 2020 April this year, we actually launched a car to the Netherlands and those are the projects just go and see where it happens.

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Bianca Prins: So technically we do follow a strategy, but it's not like it's really completed yet because we're still building and we're still developing also based on the fact that

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Bianca Prins: Regulatory in Europe is still a bit searching based on the fact that the European accessibility actors coming up. You don't know what all the countries are going to do. So it's quite a challenging area currently for us to work in

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Neil Milliken: I can imagine that

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Neil Milliken: You know, we're all in these large corporates that we that we work in in our day jobs constantly having to balance.

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Neil Milliken: The demands of the now and the projects that are coming in the immediate pipeline against the long term strategic goals. And of course, when you're working across multiple countries trying to Horizon scan and understand and process all of the different bits of legislation and

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Neil Milliken: Standards and map that and make sense of it for our own organizations, it's a it's a tricky road you have. And so how how do you, how do you make it simple enough for your, your organization to be able to digest what they need to do.

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Bianca Prins: Or what they actually use most of the time is that we we looked up the five areas, we need to really focus on from the European accessibility perspective, the act is really emphasizing on financial sector, you need to have accessible.

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Bianca Prins: Payment pagers, you need to work on ATMs, you need to work in communications and those are areas we really need to focus on and we need to make sure that those areas are in scope within the bank.

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Bianca Prins: What we also know this is that some countries, for example, Spain, in our case, friends, they have more advanced regulation, meaning that they come up with a question.

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Bianca Prins: We have that we have a digital accessibility requirements. How can we make this, how can we do this. Can you help us out. So

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Bianca Prins: It's two way in some countries, we have already. The question which is there. It's an existing question its existing regulation and other countries, we are just at the start and there. It's more about people who have the will to go for digital accessibility. For example, in the Netherlands.

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Neil Milliken: Yeah yeah thank you do and Bianca, thanks for

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Debra Ruh: Being such a loyal member of access chat for so long, we definitely appreciate that.

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Debra Ruh: We appreciate your comments and stuff during each show, but when whenever you mentioned and I'm

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Debra Ruh: Probably not going to say this correctly, but that you didn't have, you know, real rigid rules. You're just you have you have plans in their unfolding.

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Debra Ruh: Um, I think that's such an important point because I've talked to many large, you know, global corporations. I've had many conversations, for example, with Neil about

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Debra Ruh: How in the world do you really get your hands around accessibility when there are so many moving parts, including mergers and acquisitions, you know, bringing on others that all of a sudden

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Debra Ruh: They have to follow all the rules but and I've also hear here heard often here in the states that the accessibility consultants, just don't understand the sheer volume of what

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Debra Ruh: A bank like i n g or in a toast would be doing. And so I think it's interesting that you're, you know, looking at it, certainly from the European laws which makes sense because you've got to be looking at this from your geo footprint, but

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Debra Ruh: I was just wondering if you and Neil might want to comment on this as well. But how does a really large multinational corporation with all these moving parts.

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Debra Ruh: Really get their hands around this when technology is changing so fast, which I think is one reason why you don't have the solid strict rules, because this is so nuanced and it's moving so fast.

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Bianca Prins: I think, actually, it goes for, I think, actually, it goes further

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Bianca Prins: When you look at the difference, and especially from regulation perspective European mainland accessibility is not really regulated.

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Bianca Prins: For example, the European web directive has been officially effective for governments since September this year, meaning that it's really late compared to the US. And I think from that perspective that we are on a whole different page.

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Bianca Prins: You see it happening based on very simple if you if you read a report from return on disability and if you see the difference in in sustain us in in incomes between us and between the US that's already where you see that our base is way off when you look at your base from the US perspective.

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Bianca Prins: We have

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Bianca Prins: In Europe, for example, then it 13 countries.

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Bianca Prins: With now 13 types of regulations. Some of them do have regulations or don't you have regulations on employment for like regulations on

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Bianca Prins: Digital. So for example, the European directive in one country, it applies on the bank on the article, it does not apply on the bank.

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Bianca Prins: Meaning that you have a whole variety of needs and requirements and I think based on that. It's really important to

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Bianca Prins: Get the general message out. So for my perspective when I talk about digital accessibility. I tried to get the whole idea in there.

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Bianca Prins: And when it comes to local then it's direct support. So then it's acting on a request, in our case, most of the time, but we also can learn. For example, img Australia.

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Bianca Prins: Actually are people in I it people in it of in our energy Australia are trained on digital accessibility. They had a training and they did really well. So from that perspective, that is something you can learn from

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Bianca Prins: And that's also a base of information, because what we found is, they had, they had from the training purity used they got also guidance and guidelines based on the guidelines, they got we were looking into see okay how can we apply them within it.

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Bianca Prins: And I think the most important one. When you look at it from a global perspective, because I think we have

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Bianca Prins: An advantage here if you build from domestic and you have to start a global strategy that's a challenge because you're focused on local legislation.

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Bianca Prins: What we do is we try to collect all the legislation together and get to a sequence where you'll see, okay, this applies to the whole bank.

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Bianca Prins: And for example, Turkey has very in depth regulation. That's where you say, Okay, this is up to Turkey, we support them developing their policy.

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Bianca Prins: And that's also what we advise for countries we work towards one strategy you work towards one guideline. The only thing is make sure that local can differ, it's sort of, it's sort of your baseline. And that's the whole part because you move your baseline up to watch accessibility.

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Neil Milliken: Yeah, I tend to agree we we have a focus on commonality. So, so any global policies, without doubt, going to be less detailed than the local policy because you're trying to find the common points across all of the countries that you operate in

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Neil Milliken: We focus on on key principles, rather than then then too much detail and what we then do is

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Neil Milliken: We reference our local policies and our different bits and and we have policies and standards and requirements for different bits of the organization. So what they do is there and then sub references in

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Neil Milliken: In our main policies and procedures so that people know how they can skate downwards and like Bianca sayings, you know, there are sometimes tremendously detailed

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Neil Milliken: Requirements in certain countries, which would be perhaps too onerous to apply to the whole organization or may conflict.

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Neil Milliken: With requirements in other countries in which case we we can't put them in a global policy because of the fact that they'll cause conflict between global and local organized

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Neil Milliken: Organization, so. So those kind of things we we omit from the policy and we cross reference in the local policy. So you have an overarching requirement to do the stuff and overarching strategic

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Neil Milliken: Statement of of what your purposes for that policy in the role requirements of the various different people in the organization what our expectations are that people will do

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Neil Milliken: But then you can't prescribe down to the minute just detail what we, we have to leave that to the people in country to be able to know what they're doing the best we can do is be aware and collect that information to make sure that we

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Neil Milliken: We try and align that as best as possible.

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Bianca Prins: Yeah, and based what what we did. Now is that technically we don't we don't officially have a policy, we have a we are working on the policy. We're trying to match, make sure that it fits with all the countries.

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Bianca Prins: But it also fits within all the risk areas within the bank. So that's that that's the extra part we have, but what we do use is that the parts from the policy, for example.

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Bianca Prins: What do you require for training materials. That's what we said we said a guideline, which we published

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Bianca Prins: Within i n g is that okay this if you follow this guideline, you have an accessible training that's where we want to aim for. Does that always happen. No, it does not always happen yet. And I'm, I, that's the part of you, which

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Bianca Prins: Is not always it's not always to the places where where you wish it would be. But that's also the part of development and I think from that perspective.

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Bianca Prins: Building to watch policy. It's about connecting all the dots and you can better do a bit longer on connecting all those dots together, but had half as if everybody on the same page. And make sure you have that standard

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Bianca Prins: instead of rushing a policy and say, Okay, we have a policy and you have to comply with it and how you do it. That's your problem. And I think that's not the way to go because

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Bianca Prins: That's, that's not working, we need, especially in the disability and accessibility space. We need to make sure that people know why it's about

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Bianca Prins: Know why it's important, then it's a lot easier to get people when a policy is ready when it's accepted to work with it and embrace it, because that's what, in the end, my goal. Instead of saying, okay, you do this now because that's not going to work, that it's going to be a checkbox.

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Debra Ruh: Well said. I know that I one of my clients in the United States. I'm not gonna mention which one, but one

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Debra Ruh: global brand that we work within the United States. They did not have a policy. Now, things are different in the United States because of our litigation, I acknowledge that

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Debra Ruh: And we have laws certainly that require our governments and anybody dealing with our governments to to be accessible. But as far as whether or not corporations anybody outside our government

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Debra Ruh: Should be accessible. We're still using our legal system to pay on that out. I'm where I'm hoping, like other Americans that our Department of Justice is going to come out in 2021 or beyond

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Debra Ruh: And also hold all of the corporations accountable for it in. Once again, things are always interesting in the US, but

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Debra Ruh: I had one client that I was training to do this. And what I found very interesting was that we were taught. I was training content.

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Debra Ruh: People design people programmers and they kept saying to me, we know how to do this. Oh yeah, we can and actually a lot. Some of the students were as knowledgeable as me and some of the other instructors as knowledgeable or not more knowledgeable and I was like okay well

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Debra Ruh: This is great that y'all know how to do it by, why aren't you doing it. And they said, because

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Debra Ruh: We feel that if we did it without our company telling us to do it. We're just being sort of a problem, we're like, oh, by the way, shooting it also be fully accessible and you're just adding

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Debra Ruh: Other and they said it's not really a role. Internally, we could do. So I know here in the United States, based on the litigation. It is critical to have a policy so that the team understands

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Debra Ruh: The expectations of the corporations, because as part of the litigation process. So I just wanted to point that out because I thought it was so interesting that the

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Debra Ruh: Many of these technologists, they already knew how to do it. But they did have to wait until their company made it a more of a priority because they didn't want to be the squeaky wheel.

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Debra Ruh: I, you know, and once again, understand things are different mistakes, but I was just wondering if Bianca, you've seen that, or even meal. If you've sent me seen any of that.

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Debra Ruh: And Antonio and you're, you know, I know you're heavily engaged in these conversations as well. But I was just wondering if you're also saying that

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Bianca Prins: To be honest, we're not I, I, I'm thinking about it, because on the one side, I do have people who

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Bianca Prins: Do have we do have within it. We have a group of people who are trained who are internal champions. They got training, most of them.

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Bianca Prins: For example, in the Netherlands fire the program at accessibility program. They have an ag Netherlands. We have a program in Australia. But when I look at General

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Bianca Prins: And I think most of the people they are aware of the fact that it's important, but they don't know exactly how to do it.

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Bianca Prins: And there is a development going on because actually, we had a round table session yesterday where we found, for example, that

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Bianca Prins: The goal was actually now from from from wholesale banking that all of new components must be accessible if they're not accessible, then they're not approved.

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Bianca Prins: That is something we build on based on the fact that we started with our design for the design guidelines and say okay in a design guidelines we already said accessibility.

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Bianca Prins: And based on that people start to get. Okay. What is this about and then they start searching and reading and doing

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Bianca Prins: But on the other side. When I really look at it if you want to get everybody within the organization to know exactly what to do, then training must training is required because if I asked.

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Bianca Prins: We have been working with the university, for example, accessibility is still something you do because you like it. It's not basic standard

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Bianca Prins: educational process. And I think from that perspective, if you want to get to the part where accessibility becomes in right from the start, it becomes part in the build.

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Bianca Prins: I strongly believe in the part where you train everybody but training is one. You also need to be able to say, okay,

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Bianca Prins: This is an archive. This is our guideline, you gotta do this and it really helps because it also

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Bianca Prins: gets people to it to interest to do training and to say, hey, I want to become a champion and I want to learn more about accessibility because I want to know how to make my component accessible. And that's one way you want to go. I got

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Antonio Santos: One of the, one of the areas that interested me is the space of a custom experience, particularly everything that led to the online services.

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Antonio Santos: So out and with today with the growing of online services and everyone using those services from home.

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Antonio Santos: How do you make sure that that when you are doing marketing when you're doing sales, you understand that accessibility needs to be part of that.

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Antonio Santos: Know if you are in marketing accessibility should be a priority for you because you want to reach more users are you make sure that people that are at the front line of

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Antonio Santos: Of marketing campaigns or creating the experiences for the user to navigate on the side really say, oh, we really need to do this because, from the moment that we

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Antonio Santos: Are able to reach more more users were able to improve the experience of the site. It means more people navigating and more people using our services.

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Bianca Prins: And it's jumping, Mr working on within it. One of the things I do regularly is a relatively weekly blog post internally sharing learnings about possibilities and in advance.

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Bianca Prins: Sometimes it's more about research read what is the benefit. Sometimes it's a practical one about how do you create subtitles. And why do you create subtitles.

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Bianca Prins: What is the difference between subtitles and using sign language. For example, and I think for that perspective we made steps. So we move to the part where

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Bianca Prins: Actually, I think most and it should be all but I am not hundred percent sure videos from img have subtitles. Now, meaning that when it comes to commercials. They have subtitles internally, not always. Most of the time they have. But then we also see that

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Bianca Prins: The improvements like moving to use Microsoft stream and a ability to get captioning also puts people in the perspective of hey wait for us the captioning.

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Bianca Prins: People actually can can can follow the video and can use this. And that's something

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Bianca Prins: That then they start looking at it. So let me move to stream. And when I saw captioning was available. I actually shared an article and say, Okay, you know what, if you use captioning. Make sure that you also checked attacks, because there are things not going well.

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Bianca Prins: And make sure that everything is clear and everything is there because not everybody can listen to your video that is something

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Bianca Prins: People need to be aware of. And it really helps when you have people in communications, who have a disability themselves. I think that's an important option but unfortunate that still an area where at least in my experience, I don't see many people with disabilities yet.

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Bianca Prins: And that should be more because then you get

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Bianca Prins: To the part where it becomes it becomes part of I would say that

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Bianca Prins: It becomes part of the way of working, it becomes part of the way thinking within a team based on the fact if you have a person in your team who is death.

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Bianca Prins: You fit you think differently about communication about reaching everybody. And I think those are elements which make marketing teams and communications teams, much stronger, but also the part of how do you communicate

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Bianca Prins: What is your message about make sure that everybody is included in the message and everybody feels included in the message.

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Bianca Prins: Based on that, I think the Unilever commercial is very cool on that one, because I have people of color. People of disability people younger age.

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Bianca Prins: Older you know it's it's all over. It's going all over the place. And that's nice because the world is not just about the white average male. It's about it's about so many different people.

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Bianca Prins: From so many backgrounds and different abilities. And I think that his dad is strong part if you can do that. I think that is sort of the place where we want to come we're not there yet, but I think we will get there, but we have to give it some time.

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Neil Milliken: Yeah, I think that representation, the public facing representation is a lot of work that a lot of organizations have still got

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Neil Milliken: To do.

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More on

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Neil Milliken: And I think that one of the challenges we actually have is that unless you've got a budget to go out and hire your own actors and you know people in the communities.

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Neil Milliken: The, the imagery that's available is terrible. The lack of inclusive stock photos of

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Neil Milliken: Disabled people and people from different mixed ethnic backgrounds in real working situations is really poor. And even when you pay for it, you're most likely to get representations of disability that are extremely cliched and

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Neil Milliken: And borderline offensive to the disability community. So, so I think that there's there's multiple strands to some of this.

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Neil Milliken: Especially for

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Neil Milliken: Even in large organizations, you know, the marketing budget for a particular project or

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Neil Milliken: Or product might not be so huge for communication or whatever. So, so trying to work out how how to do that, you know, they go on pull down some stock photos and you end up with this sort of vanilla pastiche of bland pale illness and

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Neil Milliken: Lack of represent

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Neil Milliken: Lack of diversity and representation

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Neil Milliken: So one of the things that I'm really keen to see is actually better imagery, you know and and that to be open source as well because actually I understand that people need to be paid for stuff. But equally, the we're in this kind of vicious cycle at the moment where

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Neil Milliken: Lots of small projects and lots of stuff that happens and gets created is done using free stock and and that's even more limited

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Neil Milliken: So, so the the need for people to share and give their stock photos and and be themselves on social is really important and for also that

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Neil Milliken: The license to be given to be completely royalty free and allow people to adapt it because the other thing is there are some nice

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Neil Milliken: Disability inclusive photos, but they are ones that have so many restrictions on them that they're unusable in in lots of contents, because you have to leave branding on there and everything else and your marketing team and not going to leave someone else's branding.

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Neil Milliken: On the stuff that they're creating

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Neil Milliken: So,

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Neil Milliken: I think there's maybe as

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Neil Milliken: Organizations that commissioning some of this stuff. What we could do is work together to start

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Neil Milliken: Creating a a library where we donate

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Neil Milliken: The materials to the public to be reused, a bit like the BBC has done with that with their code repositories.

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Neil Milliken: Is, is to make it available so that so that we, we start to have this resource available for everyone to create good inclusive communications good inclusive imagery

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Neil Milliken: Because if we're buying one photo at a time. It doesn't cost us that much and we if we donate it then we start building up a resource for everyone.

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Bianca Prins: Yeah, but I think it's not too bad to say, Okay, you know what, if you start a start. You start our library.

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Bianca Prins: But also make sure that people who put in their photos. There also get paid because I think that's one of the things, but I also hear from from the community themselves is actually that people say, you know, I can make beautiful pictures and I can make stock photos and I can offer them.

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Bianca Prins: But the issue is that I get less paid for my pictures with a person with a disability, then I would get from a picture with the shiny.

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Bianca Prins: blonde lady on the high heels and you know that that difference. And I think from that perspective, we also need to make sure if you do something like that, that the people who are providing the pictures have a reason to provide pictures. They need to get paid.

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Bianca Prins: It's the same thing. I mean, we all want to get paid for what we do and it's also should be the ability to make sure that you can develop and that's also an important part of representation

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Bianca Prins: Because representation is not just about saying, Okay, I do this for free, or if I deliver this for free. It's also about the fact being taken seriously and that, on the one hand, pay comes in. And if he would say, okay, yeah. For for organizations.

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Bianca Prins: With limited incomes or NGOs in and say, okay, you can use them for free, but businesses pay a small fee for the for the pictures that would be great. But if you have strong pictures.

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Bianca Prins: And, and, especially, making sure that the disability community comes in like in in real representation, you know, not like person in a wheelchair with Red Cross wheelchair that the one you get if you break your leg at hospital, you know,

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Bianca Prins: That those are bad.

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Bianca Prins: And every time I see it in passing by, even a newspaper articles and you see it and it's like, that's not wheelchair data.

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Bianca Prins: To regular wheelchair user would have. That's the one you get when you break your leg, you know, and that's not that's not real. That's not reality. And I think from that perspective to make that reality and to make it valuable. We also need to make sure we can market it.

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Yeah.

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Bianca Prins: Stronger as a community.

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Neil Milliken: So I'm not against people getting equal pay, right, and equal opportunity to earn money. What I think we need, though, is a way of, of making sure that people get paid up front and the

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Neil Milliken: But the stuff is freely available right and you don't pay for it at the point of consumption.

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Neil Milliken: So, so quite often, where these, these things have happened actually what's happened is that people are donating their photos.

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Neil Milliken: And then the stock photo companies are profiting from the disabled stock photos and individuals on getting anything. So it's better that we

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Neil Milliken: Create a free to use collection that people have been paid for, you know, we pay a one off fee and then it may free then then the other way around, where they get a tiny royalty of micro CENTS PER use

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Neil Milliken: Where they may not ever see any real value back from from from what they've done and also the paywall stops people from using it.

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Neil Milliken: Because there's lots of things that that people won't use because they have to pay and sometimes it's not even the cost of it. There's the barrier. It's the inconvenience of having to go through the registration and payment process.

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Neil Milliken: Right, I can afford five pounds, but I don't want to go through the process of giving some on my email my card details.

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Neil Milliken: Then verifying it on my phone, failing to get the verification number, right, because I'm dyslexic locking myself out, you know, resetting my password on the other thing, because now that's called a cascading issue.

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So,

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Neil Milliken: Yeah, so

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Neil Milliken: So it's a it's a mixture of convenience and

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Neil Milliken: And availability.

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Neil Milliken: To

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Neil Milliken: Then hopefully getting these images, much more widely distributed so that everyone can can use them.

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Bianca Prins: From from that perspective. I totally agree. Because if I look at, we have very good pictures with a big and they're realistic.

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Bianca Prins: There are taken with a couple and they're really good from that perspective. I was actually really happy.

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Bianca Prins: When those photos were were made available, but on the other side. It's quite a small stock and when you do like for say 1020 presentations in a year, you have to reuse the same photos often and and and and that's on the one side, it's like, Okay, everybody knows the photos.

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Bianca Prins: So you're going to search further and then indeed it the stock is quite small.

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Bianca Prins: So from that perspective. I totally agree, and I think it also makes it easier, especially for for marketing teams to say okay

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Bianca Prins: You know what, if you have to. If you have a good stock which is available and you pay a small fee to take part in that stock and everybody gets you

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Bianca Prins: Let's say it's it's a one in a year. Once a year fee or something like that. That would make it interesting for businesses. If you get good stock photos you pay once a year, you pay whatever

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Bianca Prins: Thousand $2,000 whatever for for for the pictures. And in that case, you can use it and you can use the picture, but the people who provide it because get equal pay.

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Bianca Prins: I think that would be a good one. And it also fit what you see happening in code society. I mean, people stand up for their rights people stand up for equal pay. Those are important and I think it would fit what's happening in the in the wider society.

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Neil Milliken: Yeah, so we're close to the end of our time already. It flies when you're having fun. I mean, what are the

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Neil Milliken: I guess what's the thing you're most excited about for 2021 because we're only a matter of weeks away and I don't mean getting out and seeing people but I mean in terms of accessibility for i n g well

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Bianca Prins: I am too. That's a good one because I don't know if you guys actually got data from from the social media part, but we were in the finals for the efficient boot camp but in it. We made the final five. We started with over 250 ideas. So yes, good one for accessibility.

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Bianca Prins: And and the fun part was we are working on the idea to have an accessibility enter desk and what were you hoping next year's because we didn't win it. We lost from the from sustainability. So that's not a real bad thing if you lose that you lose from sustainability. It's good.

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Bianca Prins: We want to save the planet. So from that perspective. So, but we really hope that we can get it in the business and we get countries to apply nexus ability. Enter desk with a 90 in in in

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Bianca Prins: In their contact centers. Next to that. We're also working on other ideas. And really, I hope, next year, looking forward, I hope to get to the part where we have more structure.

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Bianca Prins: Our strategy is getting more clear. We can communicate it widely also within your organization. But it's not just a part of everybody who works on it knows about it, but it's really getting to the next level.

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Bianca Prins: And and i really hope we can get there on the other side. It's also challenging market.

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Neil Milliken: Oh, we just

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Neil Milliken: Froze there for a second.

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Bianca Prins: Overhead. What's going to happen when can we vaccinate and all those things in the picture and we keep the momentum and the projects, projects we have, make sure it's projects which are viable.

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Bianca Prins: projects which are attractive and make sure you can make a difference within in my case within it, but it also accounts for everybody else.

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Neil Milliken: Excellent. Thank you very much. Yeah, and

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Neil Milliken: Obviously, we have to thank a fellow member of the banking community Barclays access and micro link and also my clear tags for helping access cat stay on air. We are now in our sixth gear.

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Neil Milliken: And thankfully, is it six know we're in our seventh year because we've been around six years that's kind of scary.

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Neil Milliken: Having old. My brain is atrophying

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Neil Milliken: And we really look forward to you joining us on Twitter because I know it will be a lively one. So we'll, we'll see you next week. Have a great weekend, folks.

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Bianca Prins: Have a great weekend.