AXSChat Podcast with Abigail James from the Digital Accessibility team at Barclays

Diagnosed with dyslexia at the age of nine, Abi has used computers and technology to help her succeed throughout her education and in employment. Driven by her own experiences Abi has spent the past 2 decades working to make technology accessible and inclusive for everyone including leading R&D projects into assistive technology innovation and supporting organisations in the public, private and education sector to meet digital accessibility standards and embed inclusive design. She also collaborates with researchers and policymakers to identify best practices for developing assistive technology, improve accessibility standards and regulations.

Abigail James

Abi recently joined the accessibility the Digital Accessibility team at Barclays, responsible for ensuring that the bank’s digital services work for everyone, including disabled customers or colleagues.

Barclays has been actively pursuing an accessibility programme for several years and has a public ambition to become the most accessible FTSE company, sharing what works with other businesses. They’re focused on leveraging inclusive technology that enables and empowers everyone to work, bank and reach their full potential. Barclays has seen that their investment in accessible services and support for disabled and older customers has helped hugely during the COVID crisis as customers increasingly do their banking digitally and staff work from home. Abi will be discussing some of the additional support Barclays has added in response to COVID, include proactively contacting potentially vulnerable customers and prioritising them in telephone banking queues or offering cash delivery services and volunteer shopping devices to help customers who are shielding at home pay carers. She will also be reflecting back on how this exceptional year has affected digital channels which has seen millions more customers using more features on their online banking website and mobile banking app and focussed the need for digital banking to be accessible for all.

Transcript

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Neil Milliken: Hello and welcome to access chat. We're actually delighted to welcome back. Abby games Abby is a third time appearance on access chat now.

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Neil Milliken: Third time third job this time you're actually representing Barclays and we're delighted that you're representing Barclays because Barclays access have been

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Neil Milliken: Fantastic supporters of access chat over the last six years or so, we're in our seventh year now. And to be honest, probably wouldn't be here without that that kind of long term support. So thank you to Paul. We know you're at home suffering deeply with man flu.

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Neil Milliken: But, you know, we're very happy to have you here representing the team every so welcome. And for those that haven't been with us for six years. Do you want to give us a bit of a reprise of your background.

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Abi James: Or. Thank you. Thank you, for I want to say thank you for taxes chat as well because, on behalf of the accessibility.

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Abi James: To that seven years you've given us such wonderful conversations insights and raise the profile so clap back. So yeah, I'm happy. James

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Abi James: I've been in the assistive technology accessibility well for nearly two decades, combining everything from developing assistive technology researching user testing.

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Abi James: And in the last few years, particularly focusing on digital accessibility web accessibility. I've worked with policymakers schools, universities, businesses, you know you met and

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Abi James: Now for the last during this year I moved to Barclays which has been a really interesting change interesting time to change jobs.

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Abi James: And it's working with our digital channels to make sure they are accessible and inclusive as possible. So that's both to our customers, but also to our colleagues.

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Abi James: Which you can imagine is a very diverse range of roles internally and externally as well. So everything from our main banking apps through to our corporate banking investment banking platforms.

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Abi James: Huge different portfolio projects. So it's a really interesting challenge. So I'm happy to chat with access chat about reflecting back on the year

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Abi James: And looking forward to the future.

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Neil Milliken: And what a year it's been

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Neil Milliken: A year like no other.

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Neil Milliken: So I guess I mean I was having a conversation about this. Just before we came on air actually

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Neil Milliken: What we learned. I mean, it's not all being negative. Right. So I think, you know what, what are the positives been

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Neil Milliken: You know, we can talk about the negative for sure but but actually, what are some of the positives that you've, you found in 2020

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Abi James: Some of the positives have the around how quickly we can adapt systems and how some of the things that people with disabilities or different needs.

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Abi James: Have been asking for a long time have now become mainstream. And so, you know, things like captioning.

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Abi James: And working from home, all these things that were seen as a, oh, you know, that's a that's an additional adjustment accommodation. Now it's just part of our lives. So I think, you know, from

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Abi James: From the disability and accessibility community there's been some really key input improvements positives that can impact some people's lives positively and

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Abi James: We've actually I think by him having to make digital first the priority. The fact that we completely reliant on digital channels for quite some of our essential services.

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Abi James: has meant that those of us who really wanted to use digital channels have benefited from it. You know, we've seen education going online and we've seen

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Abi James: My field your banking apps and online banking being the place where you can do pretty much everything

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Abi James: Whereas before, it might have been, well actually, you got to go to the branch to do X, Y and Zed.

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Abi James: And some of our public sector services have become really streamlined and efficient.

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Abi James: And we've demonstrated how quickly you can roll out new services. So yeah, I think there's some positives to take away from that things that we can definitely learn from. I wouldn't want to roll back 2020 lose everything we've learned from it.

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Neil Milliken: It will work for you, frasor 2020 was you're on mute.

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Debra Ruh: I never really

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Debra Ruh: It's a game that we play, who's going to be the speaker to not

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Debra Ruh: To start talking on mute. I was on a panel yesterday. And one of the speakers just kept doing it, it's so easy to do it but I agree with Abby that you know we have had some blessings from 2020 I also agree though.

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Debra Ruh: Please can we not do this year. Again, please, please, can we know I don't want to lose, as you said, I don't want to lose what we've gained, but wow it's been intense and and the just the

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Debra Ruh: I really like, like you said, the captioning. You know, now we understand more and more access issues because it's impacting the rest of the society. Whereas, this has been impacting people with disabilities forever. So I'm really glad I

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Debra Ruh: I'm starting to see more corporations focus on corporate digital responsibility, as well as part of their corporate social responsibility which gives me hope. But

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Debra Ruh: It is interesting too because I think now, when you talk about accessibility people know what we're talking about it even more powerful ways. I remember years ago. I'm also been in the field, a long time years ago.

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Debra Ruh: I would, I remember saying to somebody and this happened multiple times, but will your website has to be accessible. And they're like, oh, it's accessible. You can get on 24 seven

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Debra Ruh: When remember when they used to think that with what accessibility was one. Oh, no, no, it's accessible so

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Debra Ruh: It feels like this year, we went. We took a real giant step forward, I understand. In a lot of ways. We went backwards, too. But I think that I'm very, very helpful about I'm very hopeful about that as well. Antonio, I don't know if you want to, you know, chime in here.

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Antonio Santos: Well,

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Antonio Santos: I've, I've seen no a grow in terms of awareness, like you're saying in terms in terms of captioning subtitles. People really

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Antonio Santos: Making that more widely. But I also have seen know large events where you pay a good amount of money just to attend where that was completely forgotten or taken to a kind of a free mode.

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Antonio Santos: option that is supposed to work. But in the end, doesn't work because you know there were, there are technical technical limitations. I think there's

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Antonio Santos: There's definitely more awareness about about the importance of making things as accessible but there are still, you know, we've seen that

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Antonio Santos: A good number of individuals are going into this direction are more engaged on on this or this conversation. And what I've seen, interesting is

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Antonio Santos: events that are not necessarily relate with this with the industry with with accessibility, we deal with

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Antonio Santos: Providing support or provide or leading conversation that would, would people with disabilities are talking about this topic topics more often.

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Antonio Santos: So events that we have discussions around smart cities topics that relate with design of the footpath design of the spaces.

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Antonio Santos: building apps, they are having they're starting to have more this discussions are on these topics by themselves. So outside the usual suspects of

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Antonio Santos: Have discussions on accessibility like like we are. So I've seen the growth in that

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Antonio Santos: But I think one of the edges that I haven't seen that much progress. Unfortunately, and cussing that we are all now buying online is at the level of marketing and online sales.

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Antonio Santos: That's this is a space that you could I have seen this year as an opportunity for for for that space to understand the importance, but I haven't seen the girl as I expected, considering the opportunity that is there.

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Debra Ruh: Yet very well said. And, you know, Antonio, you made me think about this, and I'm going to be terrible and use Abby and Neil who are at experts, but

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Debra Ruh: Another thing that I saw was people starting to understand how the community of people with disabilities use assistive technology.

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Debra Ruh: And I know that I was really proud that Rosemary Musashi who on my team. She's our chief accessibility officer. She also happens to be a woman that is non verbal

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Debra Ruh: And she did a keynote speaker with two other very talented women Suzanne, the chief accessibility officer Suzanne Gumtree from at AMP t and Jessica from

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Debra Ruh: From Microsoft and the audience as she had to pre record your answers because she's not verbal

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Debra Ruh: And of course, the very first question. She went to answer the technology didn't want to behave, but we had a backup plan and then it worked. But people were blown away. Watching the process. And so that made me hopeful, but

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Debra Ruh: I there's still people including people in our audience at access chat that don't believe that community needs assistive technology and I'm always puzzled by that because assistive technology.

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Debra Ruh: You know your webs. If you make your website fully accessible so that I don't have to use my access assistive technology, which by the way I wanted to use my assistive technology if I use it.

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Debra Ruh: I actually have to use that assistive technology to navigate to your website and that's so there's a lot of confusion.

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Debra Ruh: being introduced by our community. The accessibility community about assistive technology. And I was just wondering if you know that was something that y'all wanted to comment on, and then I know, Neil, you had a comment to

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Neil Milliken: The so that's fine. We're actually always been so long. She's approaches killing yourself up so so absolutely

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Neil Milliken: The first thing I was gonna say was, what we've got now isn't increased awareness but but it's awareness.

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Neil Milliken: Versus know how so so what we've now got to address is the know how because now that people know that it's a thing and know that it's a need

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Neil Milliken: We now need to get them to the point where they actually competent in addressing that need and consistently and I think that obviously assistive tech has a part to play in

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Neil Milliken: I use assistive tech in lots of different scenarios on a daily basis, whether that be simple settings or or the sort of more traditional text to speech and word prediction and so on. Abby and I have been working on for those two decades that you mentioned. So

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Neil Milliken: So I think that if you rely on assistive tech. It's great to build

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Neil Milliken: Assistive tools into your products and we've seen lots of that happening during cove ID, but that's not creating an inclusive ecosystem right the inclusive ecosystem.

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Neil Milliken: Is still through your device through your operating system. So if you really need doing

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Neil Milliken: assistive tech, then you're going to need to be able to use it on your device to be able to get to the websites, the products or services etc. So by all means, build inclusive features.

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Neil Milliken: But don't stop being accessible because actually your inclusive feature might not be the one that someone needs, but if you design something to be accessible, it will be interoperable with the assistive tech

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Abi James: And that's really good points. And I think you know with with always with two things, there's two sides to this is us trying to deliver services and technology and awareness.

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Abi James: And your there's a really big challenge of how do we get the technical stuff up to speed and up to standard

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Abi James: And one of the things we found at Barclays and we're really ramping up. Now we've really focusing on is

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Abi James: Actually making sure our core components. I've called it design system as documentation all the designs.

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Abi James: Have accessibility from day one. You know that inclusive design process is there because what actually happens within

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Abi James: With awareness, but without knowledge is it makes more work because people tend to do things wrong enough to go round and cycles. But actually, you know, great to have awareness, but you've got to have knowledge as well.

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Abi James: Yeah, this aap there's Neil's great work with them within the university sector, I can't remember the

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Name of it now.

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Abi James: Yeah.

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Abi James: Well, the work we've done. I've done with the University of Southampton with free courses. We need to get that all embedded as

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Abi James: What we expect when we are employing developers and designers that they really understand what inclusive designers and accessible development, but we also faced, you know,

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Abi James: There's a different challenge of actually the people who can benefit from accessibility and assistive technology.

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Abi James: And, you know, one of the things that we managed to do during covert at Barclays was we have a we have a flag on any customers that we think might be vulnerable or need extra services and and we

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Abi James: Pulled out to them. We made sure that a priority on the on the phone banking systems we offered them services like home cash delivery but but we know we're not reaching all our customers. We know that

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Abi James: That number is quite small, because people don't come forward and say to us. And actually one of the lessons.

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Abi James: To learn. One of the things that we're still got to learn from 2020 years as we have reduced our face to face contact with customers and clients.

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Abi James: Is how do we find out what they need, you know, we've talked a lot in the community about having to do remote user testing now.

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Abi James: But actually, that ad hoc for us that's, you know, our, our, our face to face banking stuff in the branch picking up on what customers are saying

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Abi James: And explaining to them how they could use the app or how they can change their settings on my computer.

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Abi James: With all that's gone at the moment that that face to face support. So, as a community, sort of one of the lessons we still have to learn is how do we get everybody embracing

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Abi James: All these wonderful tools that are out there, but also how do we do that when we can't see them face to face, we can't actually engage with them through digital anyway. So then, you know, that's my as a negative from 2020 for me, but something to learn from

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Debra Ruh: Abby, I was in the banking industry for 25 years and I know that we, I left the making industry when I became an entrepreneur in 2000 so it's been 20 years since I'm talking about two decades, because I'm much older I am then you guys

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Debra Ruh: Anyway,

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Abi James: Like it's right.

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Debra Ruh: Don't get distracted.

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Debra Ruh: I remember when we, when I worked in banking. We always were trying to educate our customers on how to bank with us in the most

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Debra Ruh: inexpensive way for us as a bank and and I'm being a little cheeky but you know we we want to support their needs, but we really wanted them to use our technology, once again, long time ago. I've been in banking, but it seems like with coven

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Debra Ruh: And it's all coming home to stay safe that some of that stuff. We were doing in the banking industry really trying to guide the customers to the technology on online.

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Debra Ruh: Some of that is also accelerated during coven 19 because if the customers. I know that got used to going into their branches. They and it was almost a social activity for some of our elderly people and

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Debra Ruh: All of that was stopped. So I was just curious. Did you see from that perspective customers getting more engaged with the technology. I know that Barclays is really good about that. I wish Barclays was in the United States isn't blank.

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Because

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Abi James: Across the sector and within Barclays the amount of online banking transactions, you know, through the app. Yeah, it's just exponentially grown because you

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Abi James: Just, you know, just keeping it all working while everybody has been completely reliant on. It's been a huge focus and so you know it's making sure really that digital those. And I think as people have started to use it as a lot more services and transactions.

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Abi James: Can be done through it. So, um, you know, even using video calling through the, through the app you like a secure communication process, making it easier. You don't have to go through phone banking. That's all really taken off and we're looking at new forms of communication.

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Abi James: Likewise, the other side of that is actually as a team. It's

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Abi James: A bit more of a stick, because before it was like, well, they can go into the bank, you know, we can just say, go to the bank and they were like, no, you've got to make sure that it is accessible that it works for everybody.

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Abi James: Which shows a continued challenge. It's always a carrot and stick process but i think that you know that that is

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Abi James: One of the good things that come out that can come out of the day is really perks and as well as the wider picture of inclusion as a whole topic as the widest definition is very much higher up on the agenda.

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Abi James: Both within Barclays and other corporate organizations, but it's really like. Now we've got to make sure this works for everybody because this is the only option now.

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Neil Milliken: Yeah, I think that that that has been such a sea change.

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Neil Milliken: And it's not. And it's not just about the products and services. We're building, now, but it's starting to percolate into what are we going to build in the future. So if

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Neil Milliken: If we are going to

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Neil Milliken: Use the phrase build back better, what are we, what are we thinking about what you know what's the banking sector, thinking about what do you think the opportunities are for us to to take what we've learned

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Neil Milliken: And and and feed in some of that might be, you know, changing corporate attitudes and culture towards inclusion, some of that might be the change in technical processes and mindsets, or whatever. What, what do you see short, medium and long term will be the

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Neil Milliken: The stuff that we can do to improve

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Abi James: So I think one of the areas that Barclays had already started to look at 2019 but it's really coming to Keene focus

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Abi James: Is actually looking at our suppliers and the technology we buy in.

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Abi James: which particularly affects our colleagues, you know, again, they're working from home 10s of thousands of people working from home with them Barclays

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Abi James: We've had to really change how they support it, but we we've we've looked at our internal systems and found the, you know, a significant amount have

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Abi James: Quite major accessibility barriers. So we're working with those suppliers highlighted the ones we really need to work from. And, you know, as a lot of big corporates like

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Abi James: Neil us for and I work for you. We take accessibility seriously and an embedded within ourselves but but if

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Abi James: What you're building on what you're using has its limitations. We really need to go out to those private companies which are outside of some of the stricter regulations and laws and make them understand and raise their awareness. So it's about spreading the word is we do through

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Abi James: Activities like this and other events, but I think that is something that we really need to to make sure that we continue to focus on

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Abi James: And I think that's the big, the big challenge in terms of building better

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Abi James: It's really about how do we get that disabled customer and colleagues voices into building better building back better has got to be better for everybody.

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Abi James: And if that means title regulations or ensuring that digital and first is actually digital and inclusive first as well and that knowledge is really built into every requirement. That's really important. So I think

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Abi James: 2021 21 will be different won't be like 2020 but I think we could be sitting here this time next year. Go cards, another one of those. Again, just because the challenges are going to continue

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Abi James: But I think that, and that's also we've got to learn that

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Abi James: We can all run 150% and we can't build technology super fast rate, all the time. We've got to actually stand back and think, Okay, if this is the new normal. Then how do we make sure that

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Abi James: Our community is embedded with almost decision making that design process, the whole community and make sure that everybody who's involved in. Now, these, these digital channels and digital platforms.

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Abi James: really understands their needs. And that's not just in the corporate world as well, you know, previously when the last time was on access chat. I was talking about public sector.

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Abi James: Regulations, they're facing a similar challenge that actually everybody who builds an app and a website needs to understand how they can impact somebody's life.

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Debra Ruh: Wow, Abby, I could sit and listen to you just forever. You are so brilliant always amazed by you, but I was going to ask the question, which of course you immediately answered before I could get it out. But, you know,

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Debra Ruh: It's, it's interesting, with the really making sure the right people are invited to the conversations almost right which we're all trying to do. And I know

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Debra Ruh: The current President of the United States, who shall not be named by me.

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Debra Ruh: started attacking diversity and inclusion, which I thought was fascinating. And in a way, maybe the right word is not attacking even though we're using that. But what this person.

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Debra Ruh: Said was all people should be equal and which, by the way, I agree with all people should be equal. So we were almost not officially making it illegal to show preference to

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Debra Ruh: Some people over other people, but you were gonna get in trouble. And actually we even set up a whistleblower thing so we can tattle on each other, which by the way is not the United States that

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Debra Ruh: I I live in. So, but it was also fascinating. At the same time, because we saw a couple of our corporations actually get entangled in this. And so the

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Debra Ruh: President was doing multiple executive orders about this, and I understand once again that as human beings we should all be treated equally. But we're not so we have to be more deliberate

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Debra Ruh: About making sure that women are included from the intersection ality the African Americans brown and black and

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Debra Ruh: LGBT and all the stuff we not right, but there were two corporations in the United States, Microsoft and Wells Fargo that announced that they were going to be very deliberately

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Debra Ruh: Hiring brown and black talented workers and they got trouble with these

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Debra Ruh: Executive Orders because you're not allowed to show preference to brown or black. So it was interesting and I get that in the future we want everything to be equal, but it's not it's not now and so

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Debra Ruh: How do we so it was interesting watching that attack and allowed us to all come together and fight together for the cause, but how do we once again make sure that the right people are in the room so that we don't

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Debra Ruh: You know, just go right back to the old way and you talked about it a little bit, but I just think that's something that we really need to continue to continue to explore and I'll make one more comment Abby for you to

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Debra Ruh: Think about this. And Antonio and nil, as well. But I remember one time I've been saying a lot too. And so have others.

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Debra Ruh: You know, let's be more deliberate if you remand, and you see a panel of only men push back and say, I'm sorry, I'm not gonna be on the panel if you are doing a panel and they're not going to have captioning.

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Debra Ruh: Sorry, can't do. I can't be on your panel. I mean we and you're seeing this already. You're seeing men be allies to women, you're seeing

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Debra Ruh: accomplices and things like that. But it does feel like we have to be very, very deliberate and I was saying that one time and

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Debra Ruh: Caroline. CASEY We all love said, I agree. I'm going to give my seat at the table. Often, somebody said no, bring more table more chairs to the table.

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Debra Ruh: But the reality is that's what we've been trying to do. And the reality is most certain people don't ever get to that table so

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Debra Ruh: How do we with the complexity and the nuances and everything that's happening, how do we make sure that the right people continue to be at the table, we continue this behavior that so many of us are trying to do now and I know I'm asking you, gigantic societal problem.

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Debra Ruh: So I can't wait for the answer.

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Abi James: So the front. Yeah, yeah. Really charge us, I think. Yeah. And it's been challenging thing, you know, the whole inclusions about it so much. And I think, yeah, that's

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Abi James: It's one of the things that keeps us all going with the accessibility to communities, you know, trying to get people engaged. And so it's so complex and I think

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Abi James: Even from a personal perspective I've been in that situation where people have called out a panel.

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Abi James: But actually, I knew that. Of the four people and three of them had disabilities, but only one was visible and so we also have to be

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Abi James: You know, careful in the access in the disability area that so many people have it hidden disabilities and so many people are vulnerable or disabled but mean yeah we know they need help, but they might not identify that. So it's also the identification from. So I think, you know,

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Abi James: We need more people to engage and and realize that it's it's not just a would be nice.

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Abi James: It's a, it's a right

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Abi James: Yeah, it's not just please tell us, you know, why not use this end of year period and December to leave some feedback. And whenever I'm doing user testing. I always say

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Abi James: No feedback is bad feedback. Totally. No, I don't want to hear yours right

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Abi James: I want to hear exactly what you think and any information you give, so it's about how do we engage everybody

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Abi James: We have the structure to adapt things to help people with disabilities. We can prioritize them. We have expertise in the field, we can bring people to the table, who can explain those those needs and requirements.

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Abi James: And it's about educating people in the social mobile of disability about making people realize when they are building environments, whether it's buildings or whether it's a, you know, an app or whether it's a

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Abi James: Skill for the speech device in my room. I can't say the name of that you might be disabling somebody if you are creating that environment and turning it around and with all diversity and inclusion. It's about what you disabling somebody I are you

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Abi James: excluding people because it's not the people themselves that are choosing to once inclusion, it's you being exclusive

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Neil Milliken: And and I've been there where I've had people calling out are entirely disabled panels for not looking disabled enough

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Neil Milliken: Oh,

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Neil Milliken: No, the right time disabled. Oh, there. Yeah, so

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Neil Milliken: Say I'm fully with you. And yeah, not everyone wants to be

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Neil Milliken: Talking about themselves all the time. They're not me.

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Neil Milliken: Know thyself, but but but

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Neil Milliken: But absolutely, it's

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Neil Milliken: I think that the the sort of the stuff you talked about as well about not identifying as disabled is really

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Neil Milliken: Is really key. You know, we talked about and we talked about my parents a lot not identifying as disabled because older people as you acquire conditions.

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Neil Milliken: You don't suddenly acquire the mindset that you're disabled or it takes you a long time to adjust to the idea that the thing that you're struggling with is a disability. So, so I think that if we frame services as inclusive and easy to use and

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Neil Milliken: Show the benefits without fail. This is a special service for disabled people, then that large cohort of people that don't identify as being disabled and much more likely to engage with it.

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Neil Milliken: And I think that that's one of the benefits. That's kind of this year because we're having to do that inclusive, because everybody's being forced to go online and and

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Neil Milliken: Although some of it is really painful because some of that you know it's arranged that you know that that innovation in services has led to some fairly lumpy digital experiences they are reiterating really quickly and they're improving significantly really quickly.

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Neil Milliken: So, so I think you wanted to ask

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Abi James: Us some questions. Yeah. Yes. Wonderful chat. As always, so yeah, so I suppose what I'm cycling back on 2021 I sort of feel like

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Abi James: We're a bit like SpaceX and the moment you know we've got these prototype rocket to put those a field in them and you know. We're nearly at that point of lighting the rocket and all these experiences we've had

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Abi James: It's like, Where can we go from here. And so I suppose it's like what are your predictions for 2021 looking back on where you were a year ago.

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Abi James: And thinking, well, actually. Are we on the same path for access to the VC or has this year completely changed our priorities and where we see the accessibility and assistive technology community going have we diverged completely

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Neil Milliken: Am I taking the first shot of that.

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Neil Milliken: Well, that's a big question. Um,

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Debra Ruh: It's certainly a big

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Debra Ruh: Question. Yeah.

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Neil Milliken: Yeah, no, it's good it's fair. It's fair

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Neil Milliken: I think it's it's massively accelerated the, the adoption.

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Neil Milliken: And I think that that will change the landscape, because I think larger companies are going to get into the game.

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Neil Milliken: But I think that that that's any part of it because I think the other part that that I am seeing is the stuff we talked about the Barclays are engaged in that we're engaged in through

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Neil Milliken: Communities like valuable 500 which is that strategic leadership is getting engaged in this and that has changed, and that will continue to be a game changer. And I think that whilst as a few of us might have liked that to happen.

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Neil Milliken: Previously, now we can see it's happening. And I think that that that that really is as a result of

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Neil Milliken: A change in the sort of landscape of technology, how we do business and society. So there's like there's really significant changes at the end of this

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Neil Milliken: Exhausting. He

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Neil Milliken: So, so yeah yes is tech, but there's all of this other

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Neil Milliken: stuff too. And a lot of the stuff that has changed for me in the world that I'm in is not about the tech. It's about the the willingness of other businesses and other parts of businesses and other

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Neil Milliken: Functions to to engage on the topic and that they see that it is valuable necessary required, and that means that you're doing stuff in a totally different scale and then we need to not just do that at scale within our own companies, but across companies and together.

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Neil Milliken: And so yes, that's changed.

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Antonio Santos: Now, this year, I've seen some new organization joining purple light up.

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Antonio Santos: And and and and while looking at that I start to observe the way of employees of certain companies started to go on board in a very organic way. So there was a kind of a trigger from organization and employees just naturally follow that path.

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Antonio Santos: So it was not just the group was part of the purple. It was all the employees of that organization joining. So sometimes

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Antonio Santos: Organizations need to create this kind of a trigger. And people will naturally follow, follow up there, just waiting for a moment just to do and they feel, yes.

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Antonio Santos: This is something that we need to do. And following that I see something that I would expect to happen more over the next year is

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Antonio Santos: More organizations are going to push back at the procurement level from you. It could be from a startup that is trying to pitch them to for a service. It could be a lot softer vendor that is damned. Oh no, I will. We have a

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Antonio Santos: Big a big

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Antonio Santos: software solution for you to manage all live on it all and events, and organizations are going to ask us more and more is the softer and the services that are selling me

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Antonio Santos: Accessible or this is going to have a negative impact on my customers or on my employees there. This question is going to be more on the table.

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Antonio Santos: And if you are, if you are listening to us. It's important that you start to realize that don't bother to reaching us out if your software.

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Antonio Santos: For some reason is going to exclude people don't, don't even try. Go, go back, fix your problems and then come back to us and that's I close my for now.

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Debra Ruh: Well,

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Debra Ruh: What I've seen and I'm very excited about this. And I've certainly seen this in the US.

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Debra Ruh: We cannot have accessibility conversations in a vacuum, which we have been doing for years. I know here in the States. We've been very bad about that we have groups that are focused on disability inclusion.

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Debra Ruh: groups that are focused on disability inclusion from the B2B and we have I double AP, for example, in the United States in there. They're a global and they're working hard on being more global but the conversations aren't together if we are having them.

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Debra Ruh: There are these major gaps in the conversation. So one thing that has happened in the states this year because of code is that we are having these well and because of, you know, Black Lives Matter. And me too, and

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Debra Ruh: You know, the United States trying to figure out who are we, who are we and, you know, who are we in as part of the world as well but

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Debra Ruh: The disability inclusion and the diversity and inclusion really inclusion as a big word. Now with accessibility.

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Debra Ruh: It's got to come together and I'm seeing very interesting things, and I

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Debra Ruh: am watching this and thinking, is it just where you're looking. Deborah. Is this why you're seeing this, but I'm actually seeing young diverse women.

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Debra Ruh: In the United States that are working for major brands, especially really stepping up and taking the microphone in ways I've never seen before.

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Debra Ruh: On working really hard to support these women to make sure I'm inviting them into conversations and but and others are doing it as well. But something's happening especially with women.

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Debra Ruh: In these conversations, not just women because men are engaged to but something very important. And I think is happening because we keep having these conversations about accessibility in a vacuum.

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Debra Ruh: But if you're a corporation and you want it Barclays, you know, Barclays and a toast. Is it, you know, you'll have so many things that you have to do. And there's so many moving parts.

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Debra Ruh: But corporations understanding which Neil talked about this a little bit to that we have expectations of you and and Antonio talked about this, we have the wonderful valuable 500

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Debra Ruh: which some countries are not supporting it. I, I'd like to see my country and the leaders in my country doing a better job of supporting

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Debra Ruh: Organizations like valuable 500 where the CEOs are coming together to have a global conversation and have national conversations but it's so i think a lot of the code.

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Debra Ruh: Actually pushed us forward to have to solve some of these problems. Now we're understanding. I mean,

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Debra Ruh: Seriously, witty women in technology Institute in the United States. They did an entire three day panel about inclusion and accessibility and sustainability. So they pulled all the things together and we had

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Debra Ruh: I've never seen a pan. You know, such diversity. So I. The last thing I want to say I think many of the corporations in the United States where their global or whether their national

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Debra Ruh: Are starting to see what we've been saying all along, you have to join these conversations, you have to include us. You have to hire us. You have to make things accessible, not just from a US perspective or wherever your flag is flying

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Debra Ruh: But you have to take care of your tire geo footprint it you know if you're employing people with disabilities in the US and the UK.

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Debra Ruh: And you're not doing it in India where you're located we're noticing. So I think that is something that has happened that I'm excited about. And I think it's going to continue to push us all forward to those nuances.

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Abi James: As I think it's been really interesting to reflect back and see that

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Abi James: The one thing we knew as always critical is leadership and you know getting senior leadership or whether it's global leaders involved and, you know, Barclays has an ambition to be the most inclusive and accessible for two

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Abi James: And company. And that means that it's trickled down in all our objectives. It's an added within our compliance structure. So, you know, we are, that's how we've done it, but I think

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Abi James: We've really interesting to figure out what Deborah is actually, it's that ground swell as well. We've now got people entering the workplace, who are

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Abi James: I hate the web digital natives, but I have a teenager yet for them. They're just like, why wouldn't you do this, you know, why can't I

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Abi James: Do whatever I want. Why haven't you made this app that can change colors and change the font size and do this fat and all these wonderful things. So to them that

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Abi James: They're sort of coming into the workplace and reflecting on these barriers and going, why are you doing this and it's about making sure their voices are there, but I'd be really reflecting back it's, you know,

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Abi James: It's been a really challenging year. So I'm going to pose. One final question.

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Abi James: What are your new year's resolutions.

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Abi James: Come on, now your turn.

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Neil Milliken: I think Deborah's was to find the mute button.

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Neil Milliken: Oh, I don't know. Is it to say yes. More or no more I died because I've

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Neil Milliken: Said yes to an awful lot of things and and I, I'm really tired but but at the same time through saying yes so it's making these connections.

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Neil Milliken: My new year's resolution is to

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Neil Milliken: Is actually to help push more of the people working around me into the foreground and let them take

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Neil Milliken: You know some of the responsibility and the credit for the great work that they're doing.

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Neil Milliken: So, so that we can have more people they're adding to our voices. So, so that's what I'm going to do. And then my and that enable me to say yes and

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Debra Ruh: Yeah, but that's a beautiful that's a beautiful one

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Debra Ruh: Antonio, you want to go next will stay with the same

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Antonio Santos: Something. One thing that I need to do more. Okay. I really need to make sure that I read more. Okay, I have so many things to read. So I definitely need to catch up with with my reading that is really, really late

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Antonio Santos: The other is I've been reflecting a lot in English, and to some of the activities that I that I do online. And one of the things that I read that I really need to do is I

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Antonio Santos: I know it's not easy because the source of information and not easy to find and and it is about

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Antonio Santos: Sharing more diverse content coming from different parts of the world that to lead with that our favorite topics. It's very difficult.

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Antonio Santos: Sometimes it's not it's not easy to find internal in the normal sources. So that's something that I really want to do. I've been, we know that the web is naturally in favor of your country, Deborah, you know, in terms of communication and us know

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Antonio Santos: The US is basically driving. Many of these conversations happening in the online space and sometimes we get this idea. Oh.

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Antonio Santos: There's so many things so many bad things happening social media, but that's somehow deletes more with United States than with the other countries.

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Antonio Santos: So because probably if we, if we go to other parts of the world, probably we don't observe that level of negativity. So

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Antonio Santos: My, my, my results is more to focus more and trying to find sources and people from other parts and be more broccoli really sharing content from other parts of the world, not from the current ones that I've been using. Oh.

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Debra Ruh: That's a really good one. And I think that's so important. And I've often said that when I first got into this field and I started being invited around to speak.

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Debra Ruh: It was because I was American. And because a lot of countries just figured we'd gotten it so much figured out because we're really good about bragging about what we do. There's so many good things about the US.

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Debra Ruh: I'm not going to talk about what's not working right now. But there's a lot of good things about this beautiful country that I live. I'm proud to be an American but

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Debra Ruh: The mine is a little different. And I hadn't really thought about it. Abby, that's a great question. But one thing that I struggled a lot with in 2020 was

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Debra Ruh: This illusion that I had. I don't know where I got it from that I had any control at all of my life at a at all.

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Debra Ruh: And I've been working on understanding. I have zero control. And I think that is a theme that I will continue. I've already been doing what Neil said, and I love his, you know,

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Debra Ruh: Let other you know put other people in the foreground. I've been doing. I've been really doing that well this year but

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Debra Ruh: Understanding that I have no control of anything and being very deliberate about

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Debra Ruh: And I've always been been doing this, but I'm going to be more deliberate about only doing things. I love and that speak to me and I are ready. I'll work with people if if you know I feel really good to energy from a person

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Debra Ruh: I already will do whatever I can to help them. But when I'm feeling energy coming that that I don't want to play. And I had this happen yesterday with somebody and I just no longer am going to step into situations that I know that I'm going to regret.

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Debra Ruh: In the past, I guess, it goes back to with Neil said that you say yes. Too often, I said yes to almost everything this year to almost every speaking engagement, but I think I'm going to be more careful with yes in 2021

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Abi James: Oh, really interesting and every single one of those revelations, I thought, yeah, yeah, yeah, I'm with you on that one.

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Abi James: Yeah, I think the phrase I've heard of 2020 years understanding is it dislocation of expectations that we will go to

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Abi James: Like just have no expectations and we'll all be fine. And I suppose that's something I can try and continue and I suppose

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Abi James: Yeah, and both of all of you, same theme. I think one of the things I'm very aware of is we've lost the face to face networking

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Abi James: I'm not a writer. I can't hide so I don't blog I occasionally, you know, get on Twitter, make some spelling mistakes.

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Abi James: But yeah, that face to face communication of bringing people into conversations mentoring, the people and getting them involved in the community.

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Abi James: And so I think my my resolution. It's going to be to like find a way of pulling people in and getting them exposed to the community and not just the people shouting the loudest and being there. No, this is

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Abi James: This is this making sure we have some way of bringing in the new blood and and sharing what they're doing without relying on them speaking English and being a great writer and having great technical knowledge and yeah, that's my, that's my one to ponder, to how to do that.

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Neil Milliken: Let me know when you've got it worked out. But I'll be going

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Neil Milliken: Well, I failed for four decades to do they read more one so I'm not gonna make that resolution cuz I know I've got a shelf for the unread books and some of them this fine faded.

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Neil Milliken: So long, that the sunlight is even into them.

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Neil Milliken: It's been a real pleasure as always so

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Neil Milliken: I have to thank our, our supporters Barclays access my career text and micro link for continuing to keep us on air and we look forward to you joining us on Twitter on Tuesday. Thank you very much.

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Debra Ruh: Abby. Thank you for everything you're doing. We appreciate you. We love Barclay. So we always love, Paul. So thank you.

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Abi James: Wonderful chats.