AXSChat Podcast with Matthew Ney founder of Kakana

Matt is the founder of Kakana, a ground-breaking streaming fitness platform for people of all abilities.  Matt previously founded Fitbound and Nvision.  He is also the founder of Fitbound for All, a non-profit that’s mission is to impact the health and well-being of individuals with and without disabilities and make sure all individuals have the opportunity to be included in the health and wellness conversations. Matt is an experienced entrepreneur with a history of creating cutting-edge fitness content, having founded four companies over the past decade.
Resides in Washington, DC

Transcript

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Hello and welcome to access chat. I'm delighted that we've been joined today by Matt nae from Cana met being attending our chats online for a little while now but it's a really interesting avenue that you're talking about today which is around exercise

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so tell us a little bit more about your, your fitness business and what you're doing.

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Yeah, thanks for having me. First of all you guys have been amazing and I find your chats to be highly engaging and interesting as well so happy to be here.

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So click on it is an accessible and inclusive fitness platform, and we go out and we stream live, and on demand fitness workouts daily to individually to our members and they can tap into our live classes with our instructors that are instructors with

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and without disabilities, or they can access our on demand library at any point at any time. And our goal was really twofold was to create high level, high quality workouts with a high production value and didn't lower the standard, because it was, quote

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unquote, except accessible. We wanted to really push the envelope and create workouts that someone would go into and feel when they left that it was worth it.

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It was fun, it was engaging and they would come back, obviously, so that was the first point and then the second side of it was really to create a community that wrapped around fitness and and specifically accessible fitness.

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So that individuals felt comfortable, they could hang out and be a part of like minded group of people that would motivate them, push them comfort them and, and really, For us it was about creating a community and a brand that individuals felt excited

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about, and you know would scream that from the, from the rooftops that hey this is what it is you should be a part of it as well, that they would share it out with their friends and their family, and it's be be a brand that's impactful.

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And my question always at the beginning of this thing.

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And it was two years ago when we kind of when I started the idea was why can't there be a peloton, that is accessible, and this was pre pandemic and post obviously since then, there's been about 20 to 25.

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Other streaming fitness platforms, none of which are accessible.

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And my question still arises and, and now there's a couple coming out and ours is ours is one.

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But, why can't there be a brand that is that moves the needle, like the peloton of the world, except moves the needle towards accessibility.

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And my goal was always one of two things make these other brands, either contract us out, or have them create accessible fitness on their own if we've done that, then we've upset the fitness industry enough, that makes accessibility relevant.

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Excellent. That's a great explanation and also a great and selfless ambition, as well as a disruptor happy to, you know, either.

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You know, cause market change or all be the change in the market i think that's that's a really great approach.

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So you talked about the platform can you tell us a little bit more about how you came across this What was your journey prior to starting to kind of what motivated you to, to, to sort of get immersed in the fitness world and disability fitness and all

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the rest of it.

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Yeah, so I had I had a previous company that was creating.

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On Demand videos for teachers in the classroom. So really to combat sedentary behavior, you know get kids moving throughout the day stimulate the brain.

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And while I was in the classroom.

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Just doing some research and asking questions.

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I found that 25 30% of the students weren't participating and, you know, you start asking questions about you know what's going on and what's wrong with our content and our videos.

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And, you know, some kids don't like them. Okay, that that happens everywhere, but a lot of times it was they couldn't they wouldn't.

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And, you know, you start diving in further and we you know we identified that special education.

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When kids were assimilated in, it didn't fit you know some kids couldn't participate. Some kids couldn't do the, the extent of it just because of their personal experiences and.

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And so I went home and just started thinking to myself, Well, it's not the teachers problem.

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It wasn't the child's problem. It was my fault. I was the one that literally created content for 70% of the cut the community, or the students and.

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And I just left out 30% and you know wasn't on purpose I was naive, and I was unaware.

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But from that point on, I started diving into what accessible fitness was what inclusive exercise was, what does that mean and, and what's out there and pre pandemic I started trying to figure out what was out there that could be streamed, and I found

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like three videos on YouTube.

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And one person on YouTube that was doing it pretty consistently, and that was it. Everything else was really quite terrible.

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And so from there I just kind of fell in love with the idea that you could really make change, and not a you know heart throbbing.

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You know, you know, tap, tap me on the back type thing it was this could really impact the world, not only in terms of accessibility. But, look, it's, it's a monster fitness, the fitness industry is, is huge.

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And so, creating something that can actually move the needle, where there's nothing in that capacity yet.

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What was really quite attractive and. And off we went.

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Excellent. Thank you, Deborah you have a question. Yes, and I am on taking notes in the back room because this is.

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It's a very very powerful Matt and I love what you and I, we had another question but I love the point that you just made. You know I created this for teachers and started noticing 30% of the students who are participating.

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And so instead of doing what society usually guys and I'll pick on Neil for a second. Well, Neil he's just you know he's not motivated enough to want to help when actually Neil was struggling early on in school, because of this dyslexia right so what

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we typically do in society is point at the individual and you're the one that's not motivated or you don't care or whatever. And so I like that you didn't do that you actually pointed to yourself, which is enlightened and said wait a minute, you know,

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am I doing something that's stopping them is it's not the teacher spot is not the student. So, I think that's very brave to say that I think also I think it's very powerful because I think, I think a lot of us do that, you know, we try to look and say,

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you know, okay well this is not working.

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Is there a way that we can do it so that it could work and so I just thought that was a very powerful point and I'm going to make sure this one of the questions that we asked but the question that I wanted, whether it's sort of a comment but the thing

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that I love about your work which is why you know I'm glad that you're participating in access chat. net. I featured you on my show to the potential at work but we have a really big community.

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We have a community according to the World Health Organization of over a billion people probably more than that.

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And if our community alone would just support our community. So say that the community of people with disabilities got behind us and said, well really sure you're using instructors that have disabilities that are so talented.

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Many of the students not all the students are in have disabilities very proud of their lived experiences and in their students that don't have disabilities that really like working, doing exercise with your instructors because your instructors are talented,

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and they are really good at what they do and they're fit and all the things I was just thinking what would happen if our community really got behind you, which is why we created excellence chat.

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We that's why we created excess chat we did not think the community was engaging in these really really important conversation so I just would say to you, Matt.

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What you know what do we need to do to really decide what we're doing right now but to make sure the community knows what you're doing. And then I think we should ask ourselves certainly has access chat, and as the community.

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What can we all do to do a better job of supporting the people that are supporting us in our community. So I'm asking really hard questions but I think these are questions that we all need to think about as we're recreating the world after this pandemic.

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Yeah, I say. So, I mean, kinda is right now we're kind of focused on Adult so you know it's and it's it could be anywhere from, you know, 16 1718 all the way up to.

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We've got a 65 year old member so you know it really does span a pretty wide range and the reason I say that is so, is because one of the things I I can't I found in the lead up to it and even still was everything came to.

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Well, are you okay with, you know, just marketing individual disabilities, you know, is it okay to quote unquote take advantage is it half, are you doing a nonprofit, and I was like, no, It's a for profit.

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It's you, it's, you know, 1499 a month, we try to price it at a reasonable place so that if you did three or four classes a week, you get up under $1 a class which is about one 10th of a gym membership.

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And one of the things that I came to realize was, what kind is not going to be apology apologizing for pushing out a product that we think is good. And one of the things that I always talk about is we're going to be unapologetic about our boldness, in

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our, in our brand and being amazing at what we do, and if members are sorry if the, if communities have individual disabilities, and without disabilities, like, what can kind of doing.

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They're going to sign up, and if they don't, that's okay too, because that means there's a product out in the ecosystem that people can choose to participate in or not.

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And I mean if you look at peloton versus mirror versus total versus title versus tempo versus or, you know, it goes on and on.

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That's your choice of 25 different platforms. Well, now you've got Katana, you've got some nonprofits that are doing streaming because of coven.

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You can choose now you can choose whether you want to do X, Y or Z, and no one has to apologize for that and so kind of back to your comment where if communities would get behind it.

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I think it's getting to choose and getting to put your money where you think it's best served and. And look, the disability communities are have a monster ability to sway in the financial side of things, and it is it is a monster community when it comes

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to wielding power financially. And for me, put the con out there, let them decide, and if it thrives and goes forward that we've done something right and if it needs to be tweaked because okay something's not going right that's okay too.

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And really that's what I think needs to happen more is, is more options, more people and more companies that provide those options and hey, then, you know, then you get capitalism.

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So bad so with with with some extended offer and opportunities. What is still stopping people from exercising, you know, people feel old as a platform for me.

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I have certain needs maybe I can't do certain exercises. What Oh, what can we do to make people more active.

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Yeah. So, first you kind of gotta beat down all of the walls and the and the myths and the and the preconceived notions that have been hammered into people's heads for so long, right.

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So, you know, you go to a gym and, or, you know, pretty cold and you go to a gym, and how do you get into the gym, is it accessible in the parking lot is the is the doorway, is the ramp is available.

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Right.

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When you get into the gym. There was studies done a couple years ago that the most the most accessible thing in a, in, in a in this study was where the water fountains.

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And so, I mean if that's the starting point.

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What about the equipment. What about the bathrooms, what about this you know showers. So, having to battle that right and fight every day and then we haven't even talked about the instructors at these gyms right What if you don't know what you're doing

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and you need help.

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Do you ask again for help. Is it just too much to have to do something else. And so what we wanted to try to do was make Takotna a lot easier to start.

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And if you've already started. You can just get in and you're ready to go, in terms of the engaging and competitive competitive side but the your competitive side right so we if you stream, you don't have to leave the home.

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We have very limited equipment that you have to use.

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it is done by instructors with without disabilities who have experienced what our members have experienced throughout their lives.

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And it helps them to connect with our members and say, Look, it's okay. Take your time. Right. You don't have to do 70 reps or seven reps, you can do three right you can do five, and you can ease your way into the process.

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All of our workouts are done on time. And that's on purpose. So, we have Paralympians that join our classes, and we have, like I said before a 65 year old individual.

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Well, the Paralympian may be cycling six miles seven miles, the beginner may be doing two miles. And that's okay because you're in your own kind of bubble, working off each other.

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In terms of your, your connection to them but, but you're not being affected by what someone else is doing fitness wise right so my thought processes always make sure the community is welcoming enough and fully embrace everybody that allows people to

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be more comfortable that allows people to kind of push themselves, or maybe get outside their box a little bit more than they wouldn't have before.

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And if someone's more comfortable, they feel more confident, they're going to try harder they're going to give more effort, and really at the end of the day, then they're going to become more fit and more healthy.

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I will say,

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will say, I was thinking back to what you were saying around sort of the business model, and particularly i think that that has been this, this whole thing of disability equates to charity.

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And one of the things that I am really keen for, and you said, and and and then you end up with capitalism and just an extent naked capitalism has had a bit of a bad rap and deservedly so but but we, we still need compassionate capitalism and one of the

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things that I really want to do is is essentially make it more profitable to do good stuff.

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Then to do bad stuff, why, why should you know we associate business success with doing things that are bad for the environment and the community and for individuals.

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Why should we celebrate that. Should we not be rewarding.

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The, the companies and the individuals that are doing good for society and attributing far more monetary value to that. I think that when we start doing those kinds of things and I think the society in general is at an inflection point where some of this

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right now that that we will we will change.

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So I really liked the fact that you want to make money from the platform I don't think that there's anything wrong with that, in fact, you should make good money from doing good things.

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And I'll keep repeating this because I think it is really important that that social enterprises are also profitable enterprises.

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Because, because that's how we change our society and we end up in a better place to live for everyone.

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In terms of the stuff about sort of competition and tracking and so on

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to our people able to track their own progress metrics as well in the platform. So over time.

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Yeah, so they can track their the classes they take.

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And they if they want to track their output so their pushes. If you're wheelchair user your calories.

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We tend to just recommend and I watch or, you know, one of the fitness bands we don't, we're not a hardware company yet, hopefully, but they can track the the amount of classes they can take.

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And then, as you know, if anything else you can track what you're doing, from a from a device.

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And that's the way we've kind of started it.

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So that individuals have that access.

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If they want and they can also you know you can you can kind of take away what you're doing on a 30 minute class.

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If you track it once, at least, then you can have, you can get a decent barometer.

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But I mean, going back to your to your business model, comment, it's, I think people are unaware, you know if you, if you do good. If you open up the your brand to communities that are not marketed to on a regular basis, it opens up a whole nother line

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of cash and cash flow. I mean, you look at some of these adaptive fashion companies that are starting to dial in in their brands and they're making hundreds of millions of dollars of adaptive where.

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And, you know, I forget the status was at $7 trillion of economic or of disposable or income.

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Yeah, I think it was telling us that it was eight with family and friends, it's, we're not talking about, you know, small dollars here we're talking about a monster community that is really wide open for a lot of different disruption and.

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And if you do it in a responsible way. And look, I being in in and around Chicago for two years now, from, you know, idea to now, where we are. You see a lot of get price gouging and, and I think that is the opposite approach that we wanted to take we

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wanted to be a compliment. But I think that even provides another opportunity down the line for companies or Canada or access chat or whoever it is, right, to then come underneath and start driving prices lower and getting more people to buy their products

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so i think you know there's there's a lot of opportunity, it's just how do you market. How do you show that you're authentic and what you're doing and put it in the right spot so people can find you.

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that I know that you discovered 19.

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The way I exercise because exercise always has been a very big part of my life.

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I've. And so, but it has changed dramatically. Before coven 19 before the pandemic. I was going to I'm a member of American family fitness here in Virginia, and I was at the gym, three to five times every week, and I was doing Zumba love to do Zubin I

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was doing weights and I was always in the classes because I get a lot of energy from other people. And, but at the same time there were things happening in my personal life, that was making it more difficult for me to go to the gym, and then the pandemic

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happened and even though my gym opened up slightly during the pandemic I haven't been back. I've been to my gym, since before that, but I have exercise actually signed up for Cortana, for a membership for it because you have a free trial membership but

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what I wonder is I the other day somebody was asking me, when I thought, did I think the conferences, we're going to start again and was it can be 100,000 people on the inner room.

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Well I think it's sort of the same thing with the gyms, I personally think that the conference organizers are starting to understand the value of these virtual events, but I like the blended approach where we can be in person and blended, if, if you can't

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come, things like that. Is there the same opportunity it seems like there's the same opportunity with what you're doing because you have these really amazing instructors you have quality classes, everything is fully accessible.

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It seems like my gym for example I know that they were with I think beach body or something, they get these classes, and they do these launches every six weeks years the new classes.

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Seems like there'd be an opportunity for you to take what you're doing, and also offer it to, you know, the you know the gyms, or even you mentioned how dawn or is there an opportunity for you to take what you're doing to also work with the others in

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the industry to make sure that they have more accessible content, and they've seen as possible choices Yes, and then the longer answer is.

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I think it's something that can be collaborated and partnered with 789 different industries.

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And so if you look at the gym. If you look at a gym, a specific gym or a chain of gems. There's no different between a gym, and let's say Marriott Hotels, or Hilton Hotels and Hilton Hotel, not only gyms but rooms, and you look at hospital rehab centers,

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right so someone reminded me the other day that there's been adapted wreck out there for you know 4050 years. We're not adaptive wreck, or therapy we're after the fact, right.

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So, with these big hospitals. What happens when someone has left rehabilitation and is now transitioning back into their day to day lives can kinda then be the, the kind of extension there to keep them from backsliding right back to the gyms.

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What makes a gym special is the ability to go see other people get a workout.

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You, the, the atmosphere the environment is is built to kind of stack on top and get you to do what you want to do right so how do you replicate that when you're in your home by yourself, and that was, that was a big deal for me was how do you create

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an environment that someone wants to come back every day, and snow different than the gym. And so what we did was, and this, this can be. This can be assimilated into, you know if Jim's wanted to license it to spit out classes, but we do a virtual locker

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room. And so our instructors get on 10 minutes early.

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And we hang out, we talk, no different than this on zoom and you know the conversation can be as silly as what TV shows you're watching what your favorite Thanksgiving side was, or as complex as important as hey I couldn't do this exercise yesterday.

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Can you show me an adaption for me specifically.

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And I forget we were talking a little bit earlier about, I think it was Antonio that asked about, you know, pitfalls and getting people to exercise, one of those pitfalls is, it's not for me.

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And, Connor is for everybody because what we're going to, what we do is, if someone can't reach their hands over their head. Here's an adaption you go out in front, And it's not an adaption that just says here, do it and it will work.

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It's a calculated adaption that gets your muscles moving and helps your specific body.

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And these virtual locker rooms are no different than when you're walking into a gym you're rolling into a gym, you're going into a gym and you see your friends, and you're hanging out beforehand.

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And then you hang out after, and we stay two minutes, three minutes after. And these collaborations these conversations helps unite people. And we have, I mean from.

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We have members who were in our beta class.

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And there's and are now men paying members. They're not friends, they text the email, and because of this accumulation of 10 minutes over the course of you know four or five months.

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And I think that that virtual or that that communal in the community side, helps to replicate what you would do in a gym, but also helps to then allow gym to say this is important for us to put into our programming or, you know hotel industry to put into

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their program because now they cannot just link one singular person but a bunch of people around the world.

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Yeah, I love that point because of that the women that I danced with and the men but it was mainly women and Zuma. These are my dear friends and I miss him so bad.

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I'm missing. We all tried doing zoom and stuff and it you know we it first it was confusing but it was. That's a very good point, Neil let me turn it over to you.

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Yeah, I think, I think the community thing is powerful.

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I think that that that's something that we've grown and we've seen with access chat we've made loads of friends over the many seven years that we've been doing this new genuinely heartfelt friends.

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As part of this community that grew up, virtually and you know we've, we've now met some of them in real life, but there are plenty of others that we've not met, that would still consider friends.

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And that really, you know, I think is really great what you're doing. And I think the the the value add or the staying around afterwards in the locker room is really nice.

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I really like that.

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And I think that also the time that we're in where people are lonely right now that sense of community is really good. I mean, I, I, like many other people had exercise at home I've actually been exercising at home before but I've been doing more during

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the pandemic because it's my only escape. Yeah.

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And, you know, without it I don't know what kind of state would be in because essentially that that switch from the cerebral to the physical is, is what enables me to turn off after you know, 10 or 11 hours in front of a screen.

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So, so, actually my exercise I, you know, is super important for my, my mental well being, as well as my, my physical well being and you know if you can combine that and, you know, you can do this, and it's adapted to meet the needs of older people people

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with disabilities, I think this is, and they can feel connected. That's really valuable.

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So kudos to you for what you're doing. I think we've we've pretty much reached the end of our time for the chat but I'm really looking forward to the discussion on Tuesday on Twitter I know that will get a few of our regulars super interesting because,

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you know, we've got some people interested in in disability sport that join regularly Mark but being one of them

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a couple times. Good. Good. Excellent.

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You know, there's definitely a budding partnership there you know you should be instructing on your platform.

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So, yeah, just remains for me to say thank you to Bart those access. Michael income my clear text for keeping us on air and keeping us caption keeping it as accessible.