AXSChat Podcast

AXSChat Podcast with Neil Barnfather, one of Britain’s most accomplished entrepreneurs

June 11, 2021 Antonio Santos, Debra Ruh, Neil Milliken talk with Neil Barnfather
AXSChat Podcast
AXSChat Podcast with Neil Barnfather, one of Britain’s most accomplished entrepreneurs
Show Notes Transcript

 Neil has been recognised as one of Britain’s most accomplished entrepreneurs. Alongside his business successes he is well known on the international disability stage, himself being blind.​

GoodMaps revolutionary indoor navigation solution transforms the built environment into an inclusive space for everyone. Making a wide variety of locations; office, transport hub, educational setting, hospital, shopping mall; along with countless other examples, entirely accessible. Delivering upon the Access For All ethos celebrated in Global Accessibility Awareness Day. 

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Neil Milliken: hello, and welcome to axschat i'm delighted that we are joined today by Neil Barnfather MBE.

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Neil Milliken: Neil is a serial entrepreneur and and currently working for a technology company in a really exciting space, which is indoor mapping.

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Neil Milliken: So, Neil i'd love to have you tell us a bit about yourself your journey, because you, you know you've had a really interesting career, so please over to you tell us a little bit about yourself and what you're doing.

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Neil Barnfather: Thank you and wow the journey began.

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Neil Barnfather: Many, many years ago really i've been visually impaired, all of my life.

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Neil Barnfather: Had yearning to achieve a maximum that I possibly could both impact society and our Community so i'm very consider myself very.

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Neil Barnfather: altruistic and Community driven i'm also a big believer in technology and it leads through innovation and and the use of technology, the the enabling factors of that particularly to people with disabilities.

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Neil Barnfather: When I left school when and work to the software company and in London was very promptly.

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Neil Barnfather: offered an opportunity to go work in Finland at Nokia, which was just absolutely sensational truly amazing opportunity.

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Neil Barnfather: I I progressed very well at Nokia, but when my site again failing to such a point where I felt I couldn't be productive enough in that space.

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Neil Barnfather: I I left post and came back to the UK seeking something I ate something more manageable for me, but more importantly, to be closer to the people I knew and an environment that I recognized from a previous spatial experiences, it was.

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Neil Barnfather: A very quickly realized that opportunities in employment context were extremely hard to get even though I thought I had a wealth of experience and my expectation was that it should be easy to get work.

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Neil Barnfather: It wasn't any and that remains true to this day, many disabled people struggle with that, so I began what many of quoted as being one of the most prolific entrepreneurial journeys going to date i've started i'm actually on.

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Neil Barnfather: Market 19 businesses that I successfully exited from and they've all been involved in technology to varying degrees across every possible conceivable industry from aviation.

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Neil Barnfather: Through to telecommunications and even Vending so i've been there i've seen it all, and I suppose I have a passion for sort of starting businesses and the customer experience is really the thing that drives me.

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Neil Barnfather: On a on a more sort of personal level i'm a big political commentator I like to believe that change comes from people getting involved and and.

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Neil Barnfather: Contributing and and indeed I take that philosophy free to our Community, so I put a lot of time and effort into helping both younger people with disabilities and their families.

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Neil Milliken: Excellent and.

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Neil Milliken: i'm always interested in, so we have a shared heritage, like in terms of sort of working with the Scandinavians and then also I mean you know, Antonio and I both have consumers antonia's route was through Nokia Siemens so.

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Neil Milliken: And likewise, I think we all have a real massive interest in that social good.

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Neil Milliken: aspect of things so you're now at another technology company, this time it's not one you've found it yourself, but it is super interesting and it's one that.

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Neil Milliken: i'm working with you and with my day job pattern that will be implementing some stuff with you, but can you tell us a little bit about good maps and what it is and.

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Neil Milliken: And the possibilities as a technology, because I think it festival.

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Neil Barnfather: yeah and I think trip, he said I joined the company very much on the back of the fact that it was the ability to combine my altruistic side.

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Neil Barnfather: With my commercial acumen I really, really felt a strong desire to be involved in the organization I reached out of very graciously received by the company and.

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Neil Barnfather: So yeah I I i'm heading up the European efforts for good maps it's an indoor navigation solution, providing points points navigation and location information.

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Neil Barnfather: predominantly focused on the built environment, although we do offer support for outdoor locations to but, in essence, the the thrust of the work is the built environment.

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Neil Barnfather: We offer a solution which allows people who using either android or iPhone smartphone technology to access spaces, irrespective of.

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Neil Barnfather: Whether or not there is any barriers produce or challenges produced perhaps fire or disability, so its inclusion tool it's not specifically aimed at our Community, but it was designed, and this was the real thing that really inspired me to get in touch in the first place.

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Neil Barnfather: You know that I I wanted I love that I love to the initial starting point, which is how do we get a blind person from the door of a building to to the pace, they want to be, and that premise that.

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Neil Barnfather: sat nav gets you to the door of the building and then sort of euphemistically shouts out in an almost Eureka away, you have arrived.

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Neil Barnfather: And that's not true because no one was seeking the door of the place they were seeking what's within the space.

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Neil Barnfather: And if we can help people explore those spaces gets where they want to go, then we provide job opportunities we provide opportunities for those people to spend money if their customers.

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Neil Barnfather: We provide opportunities for health care about by getting people to appointments.

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Neil Barnfather: And you can truly be anyone, you know this is people pushing pushing people in wheelchairs, people who are blind.

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Neil Barnfather: People maybe who struggle with anxiety, so it gives them the opportunity to explore the location ahead of their visit.

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Neil Barnfather: Employers looking to diversify their workforces It provides the opportunity, not just to take a box and say hey we welcome people that truly to be able to say.

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Neil Barnfather: here's a digital map of allocation here is an ability to help employees move around in those spaces so it's some it's a truly amazing technology there's a great bunch of people behind the scenes working to make it better and it's such a wonderful company and wonderful place to be.

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Debra Ruh: You know this is Deborah and which you probably will figure out since i'm the only woman on the phone but yeah but.

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Debra Ruh: We were told, your you know for years that we could not make something like this accessible it just wasn't even possible which I never thought that was true, but you know people have to have the will to do it and.

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Debra Ruh: Before we got online, you were talking about just a few examples, and one of them was an example, about the trains and the UK and I was wondering if you could talk about you know the door lock in that on air because making sure that things are mapped out.

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Debra Ruh: There like you said it can lead to employment, it can lead to true inclusion, it could but it's you were even talking once again offline about how.

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Debra Ruh: As a person that's blind when you go into a new bathroom every single one of them is designed differently and it's so confusing and I know I get confused.

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Debra Ruh: Sometimes you put your hands under the water, sometimes I mean under this bucket and it goes sometimes you don't want it.

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Debra Ruh: And every time I have to stop and try to figure out, you know what to do what how in the world to do, do you do it if you can't see it.

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Debra Ruh: But it's just so important in in one thing I want to continue to remind our audience is that, as we make things more accessible to people that are blind and people that have mobility issues.

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Debra Ruh: everyone benefits from this design, so I was just wondering if you would tell the audience of just a little bit about it because I think sometimes people forget about little things like do you care if the bathroom door is flung open when you're using the restroom you know.

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Neil Barnfather: That the the story, I was recounting to you is one of the UK operators over here they released a fleet of new trains fantastic really, really great.

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Neil Barnfather: And the once once in side the electric doors were very well mark tactile marketing slider thing open slide it closed and the lock button was marked.

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Neil Barnfather: But the way you determine if it was locked for well over a year was an A colored indicator right okay so here I am you know.

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Neil Barnfather: You know needing to use this thing and i'm not actually, certainly if the door is locked and that that's an appalling oversight, but you know.

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Neil Barnfather: I often question how on earth these things get past, you know designers and you know this is not novel right people have been blind for centuries, so how is it that you know someone doesn't sit there and say.

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Neil Barnfather: You know, and we talk about modern concepts of universal design and this sort of the sort of principle that.

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Neil Barnfather: designers and creators and innovators should be thinking about all demographics, which opposes, is it really is nigh on impossible think of everyone.

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Neil Barnfather: But I don't think it's difficult to imagine if I close my eyes, could I use this and, and you know.

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Neil Barnfather: So, and they took them as such a long time to resolve that even though you know every visually impaired person using that space, you know would have commented, and did comment and It just seems preposterous it to me.

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Neil Barnfather: That you know, we have the Equality Act in this country, which is you know.

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Neil Barnfather: Even though that it has its failings, I personally say that that should have clearly resolve that issue well and truly and it just doesn't make sense, I mean there are many of us examples particular services that roll out.

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Neil Barnfather: And people fail to make them accessible and usable by a wide range of people.

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Neil Barnfather: Looking at the, the point I made again offline about how I often quote this that you know when you have to be entrepreneurial about using the bathroom.

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Neil Barnfather: You know, you can you know you become naturally entrepreneurial about the way you look at life and the way you you examine things and I took part in an interview.

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Neil Barnfather: Probably close to a decade ago now, which was really examining Why am I so entrepreneur what is that driving force and I hadn't really realized.

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Neil Barnfather: Up until that interview when I examined it my own mind that actually it's my disability that's made me this entrepreneurial you know it's it's that that having having this this this viewpoint of the world, yes, a blind person just said that you know, has made me.

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Neil Barnfather: Consider thing so differently um and it truly has made me realize that I see things differently, and as a benefit of that is i'm not shocked by a lot of visual you know you're going so many meetings, the static PowerPoint and all of that sort of jazz and.

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Neil Barnfather: i'm absolutely fixated on detail, and you know i'm in curiosity of.

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Neil Barnfather: Endless curiosity, why are we doing it like this, how can we make it better, and I find that that's that's a unique thing but it's it's not unique in the disability Community so many disabled people ask how and why far more so than our able bodied counterparts.

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Neil Barnfather: So yeah that's that sort of heritage that.

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Antonio Santos: So, so you were telling us a series of.

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Antonio Santos: stories that makes things vaguely or why they need to be accessible, so I do feel that you know when we talk about accessibility disability about good practices, best practices, sometimes, who have a lot of.

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Antonio Santos: enforce oh guidelines and no practices, we feel that we should focus more on the storytelling part that is able to highlight, seeing that are more real than sometimes hiding everything behind it, or like you're saying about point with guidelines or something like that.

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Neil Barnfather: I I truly think that that's absolutely true that my my position is very much that.

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Neil Barnfather: The day you you put a 30 page guide book in front of someone you know, a playbook or whatever you want to call the thing the day you say sit here read this.

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Neil Barnfather: The person's forgotten the final bit by the end of it, you know, but if I if I if you bring in and this comes back to employment opportunities, if you have.

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Neil Barnfather: People who you know, a much more diverse workforce, you can actually you know, even if it's incidental, by the way, even if it's just watching the way I function in a kitchen, maybe making my coffee right you're going to see.

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Neil Barnfather: things about what how I interact with that space that you might make you think if we did that differently, that would have been better for it.

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Neil Barnfather: And you can learn things by just having a diverse workforce by having people with disabilities in your space.

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Neil Barnfather: That get applied in the real world far more so than.

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Neil Barnfather: Making everyone every six months, read the latest guidelines and the latest playbook and the latest PowerPoint presentation, which actually I dry their flavor list and lackey and context and.

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Neil Barnfather: context comes from experience, and I really do believe that and the other point that just just a tag in there.

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Neil Barnfather: Is that to me accessibility usability and inclusion their functions of both customer and employee experience we have to have a situation where you know people stop looking at accessibility.

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Neil Barnfather: inclusion and usability as requirements as Oh, we must do this and we need to be looking at this, this is part of our customer or employee experience.

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Neil Milliken: Right and.

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Neil Milliken: We are an employer, yesterday we launched a new whole approach to employee experience and our CEO was talking about how accessibility in the challenges of.

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Neil Milliken: Delivering that a key to creating better employee experiences, so I think that what's really encouraging for me is that there is.

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Neil Milliken: real movement and momentum amongst senior leaders recognize that this is, this is not a separate thing this is something that's embedded in in an overall good experience.

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Neil Milliken: Of course, like you, I am working in the field, for a long time, a pragmatist in arenas, we know that we're not going to change those things overnight now as much as we would like to.

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Neil Milliken: have some privacy, whilst we're on on the loo in the train retrofitting those trains takes months they should have done it up front, but once it's out the gate that process of going back and fixing, it is really hard.

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Neil Milliken: So.

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Neil Milliken: How do we put a positive spin on that well actually what we do is we say well let's do it up front, you know this tactic they view the cost of retrofitting let's do the the inclusive design piece.

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Neil Barnfather: Yes, and I think that that's the but that's really important to understand that a cost of doing it upfront is negligible literally a pittance in relation to.

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Neil Barnfather: The cost, whereas the cost of doing it later is not only potentially the retrofit, but they can also be I mean at the fervor end of retrofit and then across that spectrum at the other end.

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Neil Barnfather: there's all the bad press that goes with it there's the negativity that bad customer experience and frankly litigation, you know people Sue over these things, and quite rightly so.

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Neil Barnfather: And you know what kind of organization, are we, what kind of what kind of Institute, are we, what kind of organization, what kind of company, we, the kind of people that.

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Neil Barnfather: That want that negative experience want that that the stuff that happens at that end of the spectrum, are we, the kind of company that want to be.

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Neil Barnfather: Always seeming to be prioritizing the needs of everyone, and I don't I don't find it complex to do it, I think it's really straightforward it just has to come from the top people saying from day one right, you know the leadership level this matters.

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Neil Milliken: Absolutely, so we just absolutely need that stuff from the top, and I know Deborah wants to comment in a second.

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Neil Milliken: That that leadership messaging to the people within their organization has a huge impact because.

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Neil Milliken: Without that clear signal.

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Neil Milliken: People always have conflicting priorities and there's always a reason to ignore doing the thing that includes so so absolutely we need that top down messaging Deborah you want to comment.

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Debra Ruh: Yes, and I agree with that, I agree with both of the neil's because I, I know that I one time was training very large it company ICT company in the United States.

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Debra Ruh: And we were training them, you know, to make sure that all of their sites and their Apps were fully accessible and in during the training classes.

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Debra Ruh: It was interesting the students knew so much about accessibility, they already knew it, so I.

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Debra Ruh: I asked them well if you already know how to do this, why are you doing it and they said, oh no, no, no.

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Debra Ruh: They tell us what to do what to prioritize i'm not going to volunteer and say hey shouldn't this be accessible, so it must come from this top and it's got to you know.

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Debra Ruh: be done very deliberately but I I I don't understand why that anyone would design, you know, a bathroom where we can't tell whether or not the door locks because.

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Debra Ruh: In the first place, it is going to impact people with visual impairments, but it's it impacts so many other people there are 19 million American men.

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Debra Ruh: That have that are colorblind so maybe they can tell by the I mean it's so it's just so short sighted and you know we can be this.

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Debra Ruh: Is I don't understand why we would build anything that doesn't work for all human beings.

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Debra Ruh: And I think it's maybe we can look at society and say wow aren't we glad that we make Neil be so creative and innovative to even figure out how to go the bathroom and lock the door.

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Debra Ruh: But it's just I think it's ridiculous we're not designing for humans, I know that Christine hemphill of open inclusion is working on some really cool design ideas.

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Antonio Santos: To really.

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Debra Ruh: emerge designers to think more about designing for all humans, but it is not just designing for people that are blind it says designing so that it works for everybody.

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Debra Ruh: And I just am tired of the lack of leadership with this and i'm glad in the United States that we're suing everybody and it's unfortunate.

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Debra Ruh: But I wish that because I, why do we have to sue you to make you comply, why do you have to we Sue you to make you include us but I guess that's what we have to do, but and Tony I know you had to.

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Antonio Santos: Go to your point and to your point about bringing designing things accessible from from the beginning, I can, I can tell.

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Antonio Santos: A story that happens in Ireland, especially affects housing, where people are entitled to people with disabilities or why entitled to housing accommodations.

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Antonio Santos: They are they have been trying to engage with government authorities to ever say at the beginning of the construction.

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Antonio Santos: Not after and there and they're almost screaming and crying Now you can save so much.

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Antonio Santos: But just by listening to us before then, then letting the builder to build the house and then retrofitting everything so it's it's quite an order i'm not talking we're talking about a house new was talking about about the train, this is not just a small thing know millions of.

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Antonio Santos: euros or pounds, are you involved on this project, this is a really big deal so it's important that.

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Antonio Santos: We all became more professional in the way we address this topic.

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Neil Barnfather: I think the interesting thing is, if you think about it, you know from the employment perspective if I can't get on a train and go to the bathroom then, how do I get to my job, possibly unit circle where we need to train to get there, whatever, but you know, so if transports not accessible.

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Antonio Santos: and usable.

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Neil Barnfather: How do we get there if if I can't live in a property near to the office or within commuting distance because the property is not suitable I can't get to work.

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Neil Barnfather: If I can't work I can't be a productive member of society, I have self esteem issues I have low you know, so I need health care, which costs society money.

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Neil Barnfather: And i'm not productive i'm not paying taxes, because i'm not an employment, so we need to start looking at that there's a big cultural shift that needs to shift.

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Neil Barnfather: From whether it's the pity bucket of our you know and whether it's that burden bucket of you know, people who are on welfare and need need state support and things like that to the, this is a missed opportunity.

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Neil Barnfather: Disabled people not having the appropriate accommodation, not having the correct access to transport, not having access to services that we can buy and products that we can buy is insane, so we need to do more as a as a global community of businesses and organizations and companies.

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Debra Ruh: I agree, I agree.

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Debra Ruh: With so when it comes to the maps, I know that i've seen some very interesting works coming from like IBM.

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Debra Ruh: Trying to map out things you know, on stations and stuff, but I think of gigantic conference and I don't know for going back to gigantic conferences, but probably but.

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Debra Ruh: Just navigating that space, even as somebody that is cited is overwhelming, so how I was just wondering how did you figure out how to.

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Debra Ruh: Start mapping it, I was, I was just curious about it yeah so, then you get.

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Neil Barnfather: Digital how, how does it physically happen.

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Debra Ruh: yeah.

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Neil Barnfather: yeah so the the, the process is really straightforward we just literally have an individual walking around the space they were at something that looks very much like a.

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Neil Barnfather: backpack that side of the ghostbusters movies.

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Neil Barnfather: We go around we do a lighter.

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Neil Barnfather: Stan once the scans done we convert it into a digital map freedom internal representation, and from that there's some.

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Neil Barnfather: Some wizardry that happens behind the scenes that's then accessible to anyone who has the APP the APP is free of charge to the end user.

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Neil Barnfather: The venues pay for the service so that's whether that's a shopping mall or transport provider or indeed your employer.

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Neil Barnfather: In an office it, you know it doesn't really matter, the idea is very much that the venues provide the service like they would wi fi for for guests and for employees and the end user, using the APP that you know, has no increased costs it's free to those individuals.

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Antonio Santos: So on that we know that some modern buildings already built using 3D models so a lot of data already exists, are you taking advantage of that or you or you just prefer to use the method that you just described it.

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Neil Barnfather: Unfortunately, it has to be obtained at this point in time, because of the unique nature of the we combine two pieces of information both the lidar and geo referenced images, but there would be a hope.

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Neil Barnfather: In time and we're in actively investigating their technologies constantly to provide alternative options, so today no, this is the way it has to be done.

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Neil Barnfather: But, in time, the expectation would be that there will be a selection of technologies and organizations will be able to choose, you know what's what fits best you know with within their space, what kind of users, we got what is the expectation of how that space is going to be used and.

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Neil Barnfather: My expectation certainly is that the technology will continue to improve and evolve, so this is just the beginning of this journey really.

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Neil Milliken: And so yeah I think that the journey is really exciting because there's an awful lot of inaccessible indoor spaces, yet to map.

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Neil Milliken: And, as someone with site that can still get lost inside a building i'm also thinking about how am I might use it.

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Neil Barnfather: As anything sorry to.

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Neil Barnfather: say it is that's been the real if you look at segments that are that we are actively approaching transport providers who are the obvious people if you said you know what segments, the most obvious places we went out to this transport ones, are the most.

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Neil Barnfather: difficult to to you know talk to about this and to have actually reached out, and yet the complete opposite is true in the corporate space where corporate organizations have literally totally got it 100% and it's people who have made it just like what you have.

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Neil Barnfather: it's not it, you know, the fact that it's helped they're disabled employees and visitors is seen as the icing on the cake they recognize exactly what you just said that.

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Neil Barnfather: getting around spaces, even when your eyes function and all your limbs function and everything's rock and rolling and in your accessibility space.

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Neil Barnfather: is actually really difficult subject to if you've been there a million times before, if it's your normal place of work if it's a destination only setup.

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Neil Barnfather: And we're getting into more and more, you know, a culture where people you know hotspot their desks where they they arrive at a building they're not not familiar with it, etc, and you know and it absolutely people need guiding in the built environment it's just that's the way it is.

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Neil Milliken: yeah I worked with lots of clients and I work with a large broadcaster that all of their buildings look the same internally.

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Neil Milliken: And they have this kind of.

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Neil Milliken: alpha numerical system for way you are in the building which.

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Neil Milliken: doesn't really help you orientation tool and it's very easy to get lost because all of the things look the same.

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Neil Milliken: So, so it removes some of that anxiety because actually you know being late for a meeting can make you really anxious not knowing where you need to be in.

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Neil Milliken: That kind of thing is also like really challenging for the euro divergent population, but you made a point earlier, which I kind of want to go back on because it's something that's also one of my hobby horses, which is was was around you were talking about the economics.

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Neil Milliken: And, and you were saying that there's there is this sort of imperative, you know at the moment we've been doing the pity bucket and the you know the funding bucket but actually.

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Neil Milliken: i've been going on for a while now about how we ought to be treating exclusion light pollution, because Essentially, this is a.

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Neil Milliken: problem it's an externality.

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Neil Milliken: In accessibility is an externality it's it's essentially a a failure of the design and build process and someone else's footing the bill.

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Neil Milliken: And so, when we start applying these environmental sustainability frameworks to stuff.

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Neil Milliken: Then you can actually see how it can work in organizations and how it can work at a macro level now i'm not saying that this is going to solve all of the.

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Neil Milliken: The issues of of each individual product design, but what you then have is this framework and approach that the large organizations understand already.

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Neil Milliken: And is embedded in the UN sustainability sustainable development goals companies report on the sustainability.

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Neil Milliken: The report on MSG and essentially accessibility is the S and the G, the social and the governance part and that.

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Neil Milliken: There are also positive externalities because when you do the inclusive design approach you get the curb cut.

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Neil Milliken: Right and that that positive upside is also an externality so you can you can take you know well established social and economic theories.

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Neil Milliken: and start applying them to inclusion and by doing this, where we're then actually starting to measure the.

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Neil Milliken: The the macro level impact of including people in society, you know getting better tax revenue, reducing the cost to the taxpayer of.

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Neil Milliken: of people not being able to meet their potential because we've designed them out.

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Neil Milliken: So, so I mean i'm 100% with you this is, you know, this is a rights issue but it's also a social structure issue, and I think that that every organization, whether they be government or large companies or small companies can have a role to play in this.

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Neil Barnfather: I hundred percent agree, I mean there isn't much to add to that comment, the reality is there is economic loss across the board, whether it's spend power, whether it's tax revenue, you know whether it's.

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Neil Barnfather: Anything you know if you curtail someone's ability to participate in anything, whether that's you know service, you know products and employment, and so forth in life.

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Neil Barnfather: You exhale their ability to to efficiently and effectively contribute and, at the end of the day.

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Neil Barnfather: You know that's what society is all about isn't it, you know we all contribute, and we all gain, but the day you start curtailing someone's ability to contribute.

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Neil Barnfather: Then you also, unfortunately, enhance and it's a Union Yang thing you know if you could tell my ability to contribute.

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Neil Barnfather: You know, and to consume, then you, the upshot is magnified in my you know draw down from society and.

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Neil Barnfather: But if you make it so that I can participate fully in your service and your products in the employment opportunities in healthcare, etc, then you decrease the drain, on the other side of that.

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Neil Barnfather: And I use health care less I used the welfare system less I buy more of your services your products, which is just a win, win across the board, it just I don't understand how people struggle with this.

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Neil Milliken: yeah no I, but I think it's because they they they take a very siloed compartmentalized view of things and they're only looking at the cost of an individual thing is only when you can get to that holistic macro level view.

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Neil Milliken: Yes, even within the sort of the benefits system itself, you know you have one lot of benefits, where they're trying to reduce the cost and others where they're trying to get people into employment and they're not joined up.

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Neil Milliken: So they don't do a kind of total impact assessment across the piece that you get these these sort of systemic in equities built in.

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Neil Milliken: That are not only bad for people with disabilities but they're bad for society as a whole and for economies so so yeah that that.

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Neil Milliken: 30,000 foot view is really important for people to have and we've reached the end of our half hour already it seems.

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Neil Milliken: Rather, as they've gone to quickly, I need to thank the people that keep us going the micro learning.

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Neil Milliken: The Barclays access the my clear text for keeping us captioned and, and I say thank you now it's been a real pleasure talking with you, as always, we look forward to you joining us on Twitter on Tuesday night.

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Neil Barnfather: Thank you very much, I really appreciate the time and i'm really looking forward to speaking, anyone who wishes to interact on that PC.

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Debra Ruh: into Neil.

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Neil Barnfather: Thank you debra Thank you Antonio Thank you Neil.

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Antonio Santos: Thank you.