AXSChat Podcast

AXSChat Podcast with Christine Hemphill, Founder and Managing Director of Open Inclusion

August 21, 2021 Antonio Santos, Debra Ruh, Neil Milliken talk with Christine Hemphill
AXSChat Podcast
AXSChat Podcast with Christine Hemphill, Founder and Managing Director of Open Inclusion
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Show Notes Transcript

Christine is the Founder and Managing Director of Open Inclusion. She’s an economist by trade, a disability inclusive researcher, designer and innovator by practice, and practical problem solver by nature. She helps organizations better understand and improve experiences across all brand touchpoints (digital, physical, customer service and communications) through a deeper understanding of the needs of consumers or employees who sense, move, think or feel differently. This is provided by conducting high quality inclusive user research engaging Open’s diverse insight community. Christine has been leveraging digital capabilities, specifically including emerging technologies for over two decades to solve unmet consumer needs, solve them better, or more efficiently. She leads the global Inclusive Design for XR community for XRAccess, is an advisor for a number of innovative digital startups in fintech, health tech and robotic mobility, and is an advisor to the British Standards Institute committee for wayfinding. Open Inclusion is a proud partner to the Valuable 500 and for pan-disability research for the RNIB. Christine has a BEc/BA (Asian Studies), from the Australian National University and MBA from the Australian Gradate School of Management. She is an active member of the Market Research Society (MRS) and is involved in building the inclusive research skills development capability at Unlimited, the new disability inclusive community there. She holds a CPACC from the International Association fo Accessibility Professionals. 

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>> Hello, everyone. Well, and the Welcome to Access chat today, Neal, is on holiday and so is not joining us, and Antonio is on holiday and is joining us. And so he is joining us from Portugal, and we'll let him tell us where he is. And he also will not be able to stay on the whole time. So he'll drop off after a little while. But we have the lovely Christine Hemphill again today on Access Chat. She is the CEO and founder of Open Inclusion. And we're going to talk about a new almost colbran that she has simply opened. But before we do that, let's talk let's have Antonio tell us where he is. And then I want to turn it over to Christine for Christine to introduce herself again, in case you haven't seen the other videos of where we are featured Christine. So, Antonio, tell us where you are.>> Well, I'm in the south of Portugal in a region. People in the Algarve near a war. This is a beach just behind me. And that's the part of the part of the Atlantic and Mediterranean areas. And here is the this is my daughter, Gurwitz year.>> Oh, you are getting so big. You look so beautiful.>> So here we are.>> Well, thank you for joining us. All right. So we're going to turn it over to Christine to reintroduce herself to the audience.>> Thanks, Deb. Antonio, lovely to see you. And thank you for bringing us on your holiday. What a lovely treat. Hi, everyone. I'm Christine Hemphill. I'm the founder and managing director of Open Inclusion. As Deb said, we're an inclusive insight and design and innovation organization based out of the UK. But now expanding globally. So really, we help listen to the diverse perspectives and experiences of people with a whole range of different disabilities, whether or not they identify as that. But just people who think, feel, move or sense differently so that we can inform better solutions, whether that's physical built environment, products, services, digital services, of course, or customer service. So just trying to help understand how customer experience or citizen experience can vary so that those organizations creating it can do better.>> And and I know that this is a global movement, but actually open inclusion has been global. I know for a while already you've worked with multinational corporations. I know that you've supported clients in the U.S., for example. So how is this different from open inclusion?>> What a great question we have, as you know, because we've actually collaborated on some of those global projects and we've been working internationally now. We're seven years old as a company, probably for at least five years of that time. What's different now is the global work we were doing before. We couldn't do consumer research. So really understanding and listening to the community in different countries and do research on the ground, that grassroots research that really informs our design. In other countries. So we could do little reviews, we could work with other organizations in those countries to get that research so that we combined ours with this. But what we're now doing is actually growing what we have in the U.K. and it's actually almost 20 years old, in fact, just over 20 years old, which is our consumer panel, which is pan disability and Intergenerational Insight panel in the U.K.. We're growing that and opening that globally so we can ask and receive insight for global organizations we're working with wherever they are. And actually, so we can listen to the differences in perspectives and understand them where those differences are based on regional differences or jurisdictional differences, cultural or linguistic ones. So an organization that's working across a range of different countries can understand it's not, as we know, just, you know, people are way more than the disability. It's not just because someone has sight loss, that their experience is going to be in one way or their wheelchair user, it's going to be in another. It's because they're in this region and maybe they're in a rural part of that community or in an urban part. Maybe they're at a high socioeconomic low. So it's having a broader base to listen to so that we can all ask and answer more questions more effectively.>> And I want to just make a comment and then turn it over to Antonio. But I think what's so interesting about the work you're doing is that a lot of times when we are looking at all these different issues through design and innovation, we are forgetting to look at it in the wide perspective that you're doing. And I. Think it's great that we're including people with disabilities and testing and things like that, but actually if we would step back and think about it more in a wholesome Holcim isn't the right way, but holistic is whatever a way it feels to me like the research that you're doing is more than research and research. Even that word is misunderstood. But it is it's really understanding how humans do things. And that means humans with disabilities, humans from different cultures, humans that had different lived experiences. And I think that's what's so powerful. So I know that you said you had already had a group in the UK, and I was wondering if you would just talk a little bit about how that how it looks, because I know you're now expanding it to more global groups. But before I have you answer, I didn't know if, Antonio, you wanted to make any comments on what we already talked about. Let me turn it to you and then we'll have Christine address that.>> Thank you, Deborah. It is something that we we know well from from the last couple of months is the fact that, you know, online has become predominant in the way we shop. In a way, we do many things and activities. And we know for sure that many retailers all suddenly discovered that they have to reinforce and spend more in transforming the way they do retail online. And I just we're already doing that. But they were ignoring users and having and providing good experiences. So we are talking about something here today that is is not new in terms of the ideas and the objectives. But for some retailers, this is something that they haven't found relevant of. They haven't spent enough time taking care in order to improve how they are. They improve the experiences in retail for consumers with disabilities. You know, sometimes when they are trying to address these, they might choose a group or an agency that can fix that for them. But but there's enough info in the world today, and there's nice people out there who already can provide them a kind of a roadmap about what they need to do. So my question to you, Christine, is why we we have all this info, but why are we still struggling in terms of retail and online sellers in order to create good experience for people with disabilities? So knowing that lack of information is not an excuse.>> It's a brilliant question. And I'm going to start with you, Antonio, that I'm going to go back to something that Deb said after. So just put a flag in that one around understanding, which I think was really powerful, Deb. So why do retailers still find it difficult? The answer is it's not that insight is easy. You can't just say, oh, I'd like to have a pen disability survey or mystery shopping, you know, journey based experience or even, you know, deep understanding of what my customer experience is today. For people with a range of different access dates, it's actually very difficult for organizations to find that. So I have a lot of empathy, actually, for large organizations that have very high intent, have actually a very high desire. And it's probably worth just mentioning my background is I worked in design and innovation for a long time before I came to inclusive design. And I failed people literally for decades. And I'm first to put my hand up. And it's why I'm so passionate about what I do not because I didn't get up every day with brilliant intent, but because I didn't have the insight and information I needed to fulfill that intent for everyone. I just didn't know better. Now I work in a space where I can no better, and I want to share that as powerfully and usefully to other people like me out in those organizations, getting up every day, trying to create a wonderful retail experience, but actually not knowing better. And it's hard to get that better knowledge. If you're in the US as an example, which you are, you can easily go to single disability groups or you can go to and get viewpoints on people with sight loss or people with mobility neys, spinal cord injuries, etc. group to group. You can equally go to a group that might tell you all about your digital experience or all about your built environment. But it's actually very, very rare to find organizations like ours that work right across the brand experience and work, pain, disability and actually beyond disability to very much the social model of disability to anyone who is disabled in that moment. You know, a great example, just a case study of that right now is today I delivered a report to a client and we did a whole range of research and disability, both with community leaders and within. And then a survey into the community and part of the community that we surveyed were women with young children and women who are pregnant, because actually, in terms of the particular technology we were looking at here and the concerns that they have, they have a situational disability that would put them in a position of, you know, some additional concerns around this particular product. So understanding who might be excluded to me is the starting point that's difficult to do for an organization, even with intent. Let's stop by. Not every organization turns up with intent, but many do. And actually more and more are doing. But we want to do is harness that intent and enable it with good quality insight. That's right. Sized for the job, too. That's the other thing is sometimes people say, oh, I'll do that. And they're a big global research organization that'll take a year and that'll be, you know, two hundred and fifty thousand. And, you know, their eyes are popping, going. That's a bit much for fed my budget. You know, so right size for my question. Very much design, informative. And things change so fast, too. So let's also recognize that design these days and innovation is very much how can you just get enough information to make the decisions you need to make now, especially in a Covid impacted world? We shall know what's coming in six months time. So to set ourselves up for making the right decision now with the right amount of information, that's fit for purpose. Dave, I'm going to come to something hopefully that answers use and told you. I'm Dave. I'm going to go to you on word you mentioned that I absolutely loved. It was understanding. There's such a difference between research and understanding, and you talk about that kind of misunderstood layer of research. Research can be a thumbtack that's very academic and it takes a, you know, a month and a whole lot of coffee to read through, let alone then work out what to do with it or, you know, really good quality insight to me is helping understand and putting the level of understanding in front of the person who requires it so that they can go. That's really interesting. Now, when I'm making not just this decision that that research inform and we can help with understanding around decisions that are clear and obvious at the time, but it's when they're making their next decision that we've given a useful enough understanding, whether it's watching someone experience their product with, you know, we're doing more and more interesting ways of in-home ethnography and so on at the moment so that people can actually see how people are living with their products or services or whether it's having someone experience, say, a website and watching that as they do some journey based. This is what I look for and this is where I go and not look at Pasto. Let's tick the box. But in in a normal situation, when you're going to use our product or looking for services on our website or on our app, go through that journey and just see people struggle or see people be delighted by it. And that that lasts so much longer than that, Dick. That can kind of land on a desk and be quite heavy, but not necessarily so informative, have better decisions both now and also in the future. And humans are a part of that understanding. It's that human story that making it real with whole humans. And David, you and I were talking about this beforehand, but not just the person's disability, but their whole humanness, all their characteristics, all the reasons that that's why they like something or don't. Yeah. So to bring us>> producers just tapping into people's lived experiences, I just want to give you, as Antonio said, a lot of people are doing pieces of this. I know that when I had my old company Tech Access and we were all about Web accessibility, we would take our testers. And we always hired a wide range of disabilities. We would take our testers in and we would actually we would let them use the technology and have the customer watch them. And the insights that the customers got, they were just there would be shocked by it. And they were like, oh, I didn't know you were going to you. Oh, that's so interesting. Oh, and that's also an opportunity for the other our other customers. And so but to do it, I do think, you know, a lot of people are doing that, but I don't know. And once again, this is for your business to make sure that people can be that these retailers or the customers or the organizations can understand how people are and can be using your products and services so that you have a better product and service. And also, Christine sort of alluded to this as well. But when you build something that's accessible for one group, it actually will make it more accessible for everybody else. So it's I knew that I did years ago something called a hashtag called Vote with Your Wallet, where I was really trying to get the community of people with disabilities to support the brands that were supporting us. But at the time, it just wasn't I guess it wasn't time yet. But the reality is, the the I think that was so interesting about what you're doing is that we do need to understand how humans are utilizing your services, where they're failing, where they're having successes, where they're using your shirt, your service or product differently than you even expected it. I just think that's so fascinating. And so I do think it's really important that we move towards this direction that you're doing with your new business that tries to, you know, make sure that different lived experiences are included in meaningful ways. And so, you know, can you talk a little bit more about the how it works? So, you know, I know you're developing a community. You have a very strong community in the U.K., but you want to expand it out more globally. But tell us a little bit about how who these people are. I mean, how does it work if if I'm making sense?>> Yeah, absolutely. And, you know, I think you essentially it's the anyone with an access need. So whether or not people identify as disabled is irrelevant. But if you know, the way the way I describe it is if you think if you move, if you sense or if you feel differently and differently enough, that design fails you. We would love to have you join the community, and what we're trying to do is create a space which is you can be validly rewarded for sharing that insight, but actually more than fairly, because, you know, like any market, any research organization, we will, of course, share value back and those incentives for any work that people do. It's not asking for this for free. It's not asking for something that's really valuable to a commercial organization and not giving that value back. This is actually creating that value, but it's also creating power. It's creating influence and it's creating impact. And to me, the community that we have in the UK, the reason they are such a beautiful community and I they are the gym at the heart of our business, there is no question. The reason that they are so engaged and so actively involved in the research we do, we actually have to be careful that we don't overuse anyone. So we have to look to make sure that people are fitting in on the same style of research or in the same industry too often because people get really passionate about getting involved, because this allows them to impact. Both for themselves but also for people like like themselves and people in the future. So that design just gets better over time. So what we really want to do. I mean, I'm hoping that in 10 years time, we don't use the term inclusive design. We just call it what it is, good design. It's either good or it's not good. If it's not good for a whole chunk of people, it's not really good design. So we really wish to create an understanding and share that understanding that you were before dead into organizations to help create better design and better for more people more consistently now from the organization side. So from the community side, this is a place to come and be heard. And what we promise is we ask in a way that is beautifully inclusive. And we have had many years of practice, but actually we still get it wrong. And the way we save ourselves from putting that into the community is we actually co design all our research with community leaders for each of the communities of different access needs within. So we make sure that the research itself is delightfully inclusive and easy for people to share their perspectives. But we also work with brands and organizations to make sure that they we give it to them in a way that they can make change on the basis of it. Apology's that's my job going to stores that all of a sudden I'll go and get them.>> Of course, you're always just saying hello to the access tech community.>> Move to the classic zoo. You've got to have a dog on the call.>> You got to have children. You've got to be on the guest list is part of what we're living our lives while we're working.>> So we we are we are. Luckily, the child will sort the dog out. We have both from the organization's point of view. The other thing is to really help businesses understand how sorry he is going to sort of help them and understand how to get that information at the right scale and right size. It helps them. And also, when they're doing beautiful work, when they've done something and they've made something that is more inclusive of more people and taken that consideration, it's quite difficult for the community today to find that. And actually the reason we've really set up simply open as a global community and that we're we've got some interesting technology that we're going to use to underpin this is we're solving a two sided problem. There is the community side, which is as a consumer, I want you to understand me. All of me, all of my needs. And where you are succeeding and catching people, getting it right is just as important as catching where things are going wrong, because I need to know and protect that and understand that as you go to the next iteration of the product, that bit, that's the bit you hang onto, because that's really working for you, as you say, dead sometimes even in ways that they might not have expected or knowing if you didn't go and ask. So protecting what's good, understanding what's still to be addressed and still needs to be improved. That's really help the community to share that and get better products. But there's a business problem as well that the consumers have, which is how do I find the right brand that's going to have the service or the product or the capability that I need with all of me turning up. So with the resources I've got with whether that's financial or intellectual or emotional or the region I live in, all those different limitations and capabilities that I bring, but also the needs that I have and the particular ways that I prefer to deal with that particular product category, whether it's banking or retail. You know, I want it delivered to my home or I wish to go to them, whatever it is. So it's very, very hard today to find the products and services that suit you. And yet the organizations are spending more and more money, time, intent and effort creating them. We need to bridge both sides of this so that those organizations that are doing brilliant work can be found by the consumers that have the specific needs that they've designed in.>> I agree. And I just want to say that this is not being done, and that's why these products aren't really accessible to us. And so I know people think they're doing it, but it's not really happening, which is why we are impressed with what Christine is doing. But Antonio, I know you're on holiday, so give us one more question and then let's let you go back to your holiday.>> Thank you. So we know the UK is one of the most successful countries in terms of online selling is actually a few years ago. The online market and you know, sales in UK had already a huge impact on the GDP in the UK. When you compare it with Germany, when you compare with France or Italy, it's basically it was the biggest in Europe and one of the biggest in the world. Do you see that the fact that there is such a demand and that online is so embedded in in the way our people are already doing their own activities in the UK, is that somehow also putting some pressure on retailers to make their sites and our products more accessible? And the other part of the question is, how can what can we learn from there? And go ahead and go to two markets where online is not as developed and find a way in which they are route will be shorter than the UK was, because that didn't happen overnight. So how can we learn from what happened in UK in order to rapidly improve other markets that are emerging into digital?>> Brilliant question, Antonio. Yeah. Very interesting, too, because you might hear, although I work in the U.K., I have an Australian accent. And in fact, Australia kind of dove into online even faster than the UK. So, in fact, Australia and New Zealand are quite often used by organizations like Amazon as testbeds for new technology because they were some of the earliest adopters of digital technology. So I was creating digital technologies back in Australia in the noughties, you know, 2000 to 2010 in banking. And they were some of the leading banks in the world in terms of the amount of functionality that was being gotten online. And I went to the U.K. and actually there were quite a way behind. And the U.K. is ahead of a whole lot of other regions again. So absolutely. Leapfrogging is something I'm a huge believer in that learn from what's the leading practice today, but also learn from the leading players in those regions. So if you're looking to customer service, for example, and I know it's in digital, but I'm just going to use a physical example for this for a moment that we're working with an organization that's the real operator, and they're saying we want delightful customer service and we don't want to look at other rail operators for that because we want to really think about that outside of this industry, which is probably not the best industry out there for delite. And so they're looking at, you know, people that really are delighting people coming in. So they're looking at entertainment organizations and so on. To understand delight, you can look at places that are the leading, you know, where's that high waterline and learn from them and be much more efficient about it because you don't need to go through that learning. So, you know, I think there is a lot to be learned. I think there's also something about multichannel and intergenerational that I'd like to mention, that we did a lot of work in homes with older people last year. So for the Center for Aging Better in the U.K., we were looking particularly kitchens and bathrooms and how people prepare for their later life, and particularly as functional needs change in later life, how they set themselves up for independence in their home. What was fascinating is how many people got through to their 80s. I mean, I think our oldest participant was late 80s. We're using digital as part of their journey. But for most people, it's one part. And what was really interesting is how different different journeys were. So some people, you know, even people really quite a lot later in life were using things like Pinterest boards to get ideas and get products and services, bring it together there, and then wanting to go in store to look, touch and feel and maybe talk to someone and buy. Some people were going in store and then looking online to find the best deal. Some people would. You know, there was a lot of interest in technologies like immersive technologies and augmented reality to try products out in the home before you drag them back and go, well, that didn't work, did it? And particularly as we were doing this just at the changeover, the transition from a pre Covid world to a Covid world, we saw some of the considerations that people had in a lockdown environment because the research did actually transition that period. So things like if you're looking for dexterity, friendly, kettell, for an example, how do you see the buttons? So if you've got something that's an augmented reality, 3D, something, you can turn around, you can see it, can't touch it, you can't go in store and look and feel. But it's still better than a dodgy photo on a website that you can't move or manipulate or go to the bit that's relevant for your access needs, whether it's site loss, whether it's dexterity, whether it's mobility. But to know how heavy is it, what's the buttons, how is the information portrayed? So all this information that helps people understand, is this a great product for them or not? Is this going to give them independence in their life or not? And it's actually a real challenge there that we found, which was the retailers themselves didn't know what was inclusive about the products and services. They sold products in this case. And so there's a huge piece of work, I think, to be done by organizations that wish to lead in this space. And there's such an opportunity here for those that wish to do so to learn about the products. If you are a retailer and you've got lots of products from lots of different organizations. They may may well have designed with access needs in mind, or they might have just accidentally locked in on something because it was very light or because it had a really big button on it that has a really adaptive need. And so you need to kind of look for what's useful about this product to people with different access needs. So and then train your store staff or put into your digital information. What information is there that's relevant to a buyer with that additional need to find it? Because today it's just in. Credibly difficult to find that thing that suits you.>> And I think it's so interesting that you were that you were talking about looking at it during Covid, the, you know, the kitchen and the bathrooms. I've talked about this on air, but sadly, my husband is in late stage journey with dementia and now Parkinson. And he was in the bathroom and accidentally hit his head on the doorknob and went into seizures. It was horrible experience. So now my bathroom door no longer has a door knob. I just took it off. But the it's amazing how many people, especially elderly people, get in trouble in the bathroom. It's it's shocking the amount of people that get in trouble. And so looking at our homes and our the buildings that we live in to make sure that they make sense. For example, I realize now looking that I've been in my home for 20 years, but the bath, the way we designed the bathroom, it really does not meet my husband's needs at all. So but so just, you know, making that point. But I also think it's important in that I work so much with multinational corporations and I and they cannot look at these things from just one lens. Often I see them only looking at these lenses of design from the U.S. or maybe they're from the U.K. or wherever their home offices are. But you have to really look how people use things from different cultures and stuff, which is why it's so important and globally. But I also think once again, the technology is changing so fast. And so we're working with different large corporations that their technology is being attacked by legislators and saying, oh, no, we don't want to do this, when actually the things they want to take away are things that our community that wants to age in place wants to be independent. We are using these tools in ways, once again, the creators, the manufacturers, the ones selling it to us, they have no idea we're using it this way. So everything is becoming more complicated. So if you are a retailer or you're a bank or you're any organization, corporation that has human beings shopping, buying from you, and you don't understand how we are using it and legislators, you don't understand how we need this technology to remain independent. You are actually hurting our community. We recently had been talking about this a lot with some a lot in the states, with legislation, with voice technology, sort of like, oh, well, we're going to take these and these things away. As you do that, you just took away the functionality that we're using to remain independent. But people don't understand the complexity. And I'm sorry, the designers, they don't understand and the research people and the mystery shoppers don't even know the right questions to ask. They don't they don't understand how we are using your technology or how we wish we knew we could use your technology.>> So did. Sorry.>> Just just a quick note. There's a a government in Europe, in Estonia, where they for government services, they establish a KPI where every individual needs to be able to do that in 15 minutes. So if they're doing if they're doing something on the on government websites they need, that needs to be done in 15 minutes. That's the minimum, because if someone is spending more time is because something is wrong with the process itself or with the design of the service so that they establish that in order to to improve the experience of citizens. But in the overall, they don't want people to spend hours to do a simple task like requesting a service or something. So I think those those type of KPIs are very interesting to implement, to improve services.>> Actually, it's a really interesting one, Antonio. I will come back to the government services in a moment, because I think that's a really important point. So, again, a flag for me to come back. But Deb, first, I'm just going to touch on what you were talking about. It's that the reason that research organizations and particularly I look at you with its customer experience inside organizations or, you know, big research houses don't get this is they don't have deep connections into the community. They're not listening day to day to people with lived experience of disability and the variety of lived experience. And there is so much rich knowledge and insight within there. And if, in fact, I'm working with the Market Research Society in the UK to on a group called Unlimited, which is looking at how two levels, one, how we get more people into the research community that have lived experience of disability so that we just have that knowledge and just like. We wish to in the design community, we also do in the research community. But secondly, how we design research, that of itself is more inclusive. Because while the research industry is, as it is today, where most of it is quite exclusive, they don't even know that they're excluding people. But the tools they're using, the way they're asking the the knowledge of the community is very low. So they're actually excluding people by default, which means the research they're creating and giving to organizations is distorted. Organizations with all good intent are making decisions based on that research. That research is missing a huge chunk of society because they weren't asked in a way that they could answer and respond to easily. Now, that's that's the kind of what's missing. But what you were talking about is what's there, which is not only are you missing hearing the representative voice of the community of people with lived experience of disability, you're also missing the incredible innovative capability that sitting within that community, because when the world is not designed for you, what do you do? You hacket you pick up a product and use it in a way it wasn't intended because it works for you. You become creative. And we're looking at what we talk about in simply open the community of people. We would love to come and sign up to simply open doors. I think a big plug there is the creative renegades in this community, the people that have that creative bent that look at the world and go, hmm, does it work? Wonder how I could make it so that they're actually they renegades in that they're not accepting of world of these today. So they are frustrated. But that frustration is going in and optimistic and positive direction. There are so many people with those characteristics in this community, and that is so powerful, not just to not exclude, but to actually create incredibly powerfully innovative, useful and really consistently useful products and services. And, Tony, I just to quickly pick up on your point on government services. One of the projects we've been involved in for the last year now. Oh, my gosh. That is time has flown is a government service. And we've been working with the Test and Trace Act in the UK helping bring it understand where and how that might work or be difficult for people with disabilities. And actually, it's exactly that is just efficiency of journey, but it's also emotional energy, psychological and Covid is something that is highly emotional. If you're getting a message that says you might have been in contact with some of the head Covid and you might need to isolate now for a period that the nervous energy for anyone goes up. But if you've got heightened anxiety or if you're new, adverse in the messaging is so complex and it's changing so fast as it is. It's been such an interesting design challenge to make sure that we're listening, hearing, understanding and providing the kind of insight in a really, really fast moving space to help make a better product that is more usable and more understandable, actually, but also more practically understandable so that people aren't spending hours on. They're trying to work out what it's saying to them. And this is a really complex space because, of course, the knowledge of Covid itself or what government's advice is around it or medical advice is around it is changing on a regular basis. So it's one of those fabulously interesting areas to have have witnessed and been part of for the last year. So, yes, it's a really important thing. And for us, its success is clarity, simplicity and minimum amount of mental cognitive psychology. So emotional energy that's drained in the getting through, whatever it is that that journey is there.>> Right. And so, once again, health care, I mean, I love that we're finally using telemedicine. I hope we continue to do that. But I know that we're almost out of time. So I would like to sort of give you the opportunity to do an ask. So we are definitely wanting you to give us your website again and tell us where you are on social media. I know you're going to join us on Twitter. But what I would want to know is how who are you looking for? So what if I'm a person that doesn't know technology very well? Are you looking for me? So maybe you could just tell us who you're hoping will want to join your community. And also, I know that you one thing, you want to use this community where people can share and learn from each other. But there's also that you also want the opportunity to use the people that are in this community to use the. As testers and evaluators and mystery shoppers and things like that, and when your company gets paid, it's a paid project, you are paying them. And you know, of course, we're trying to do. We are doing billion strong billion hyphen strong dot org, bringing together the community to to celebrate our lived experiences with disabilities. But a huge issue that we have is employment. And so you're offering people to join it almost as part of the gig economy. Exactly. Sort of as entrepreneurs on their own, because you know how valuable our voices are. And that means even if you have a different voice and you're using technology for your voice. So I was just wondering if you would uses this as an opportunity to ask people to join your community and at the same time ask customers to know that you're there. This is the time when you really put on your marketing and branding hat to give this thing to ask here.>> Thank you so much, Dave. I'm not the world's best marketer, but I so believe in what we're doing. It's just telling people the why and the what. So to me, the community that I'm really looking for to gain insight from and to share their perspectives in is anyone you don't need to be digitally savvy. The only thing is you need an email account and you need to be prepared to do various tasks. They could be you could decide that actually, I'm only going to opt in and do work when it's reviewing your physical product or reviewing something that might be mystery shopping in a physical environment. I'm not interested in doing surveys or online tasks. That's fine. You may go. I'm a total tech person that's looking at immersive technologies and, you know, new forms of mobility and, you know, all the tech delights that are out there and you wish to feeding. And we work quite a lot with innovative organizations working at the age of tech. So we do quite a lot of innovation projects. They're the ones that you really wish to step in. There is a place for you. You might. So anyone basically, as long as you have an email and as long as you have a difference, it is sufficient that you get frustrated by poor design failing you. This is the community for you. It's great. We hear voices.>> Christina, just a thought came to me. But would if I am a consultant and can I still do my consulting or have my own business and still be part of your community or>> this this is not exclusive in any way. You could also be part of our community and be part of three other research communities. I want people's voices heard. I applaud you for having your voice heard in multiple places. So there is no exclusivity. The only thing we ask is when we ask a question, you respond to it with genuine and honest intent. So you just you don't need to represent everyone with your exis need. You just need to respond as you and respond genuinely. That is the only thing that is required, because that then gives us the knowledge. Once you get lots and lots of these voices. Yes, as one of my team was saying the other day, is like the individual blades of grass creating a lawn. You know, this is truly grassroots. And we're bringing together, you know, each of those individual plays. And as researchers, we need to then look at the patterns across that and understand what that means, that people only ever need to represent themselves in this moment with that question.>> Okay, great. So once again, I know we're almost out of time and I definitely want to thank our sponsors, but tell us the website and tell us social media handles.>> Thank you. So the website is simply open dot Iot. So simply open. Simply the word open the word no dots, no anything between it dot Iot. And in terms of right now, we have research open in North America, in the US and Canada, in Australia, New Zealand, in Japan, in Ireland and in the UK. So in any of those regions that you happen to live on, we have research open right now that you can not just sign up, but get engaged in. And then in terms of any other region where we're building right across the globe. So we are looking at the moment we're building just in English and Japanese. So Japan is the first country that we're using multiple language in that we will be looking to bring other languages in as we go into each region. And from the organizational perspective, there's two different kinds of organizations that we're wanting to partner with. One, of course, is organizations that offer products and services to consumers and that want to understand the consumers better. Back to that understanding design, informative understanding that understands particularly how humans differ and how that difference impacts the value that people get from your products and services. That's what we're bringing. What the other. Nations that we work with is the whole ecosystem of capability out there of consultancies, whether it's built environment and access auditors, whether it's digital and website experts. We're going to highlight the gaps that consumers have today. We don't close them. We give that information to the organization. We're going to show how big this gap is. We're obviously, you know, we're not going to have any idea how to create a website that is accessible in Japanese, in Japan. We don't know how what the built environment codes in Australia are. So it's that ecosystem of capability as well to support the gap. Once it's identified that, you know, those organizations would love to partner with. And in every country we're going in. We're not going into any country without having a partner on the ground that helps us keep regionally relevant.>> I agree. I agree. I know it. Booleans strong. We already have 71 countries engaged. I agree with that. But. All right. Well, thank you so much, Christine, and thank you. Access Micro Link and my clear text for keeping on us air and making sure accessible. We are so grateful to our supporters and to our community. So look forward to seeing you on Twitter on Tuesday. Antonio, have a wonderful holiday. I hope Neal has a wonderful holiday and I hope Christine and I get to take holiday soon, too, and be safe. So thank you, everyone.>> Bye bye. I should tell you, I thank you so much, Dave. I.