AXSChat Podcast

AXSChat Podcast with Judge Ginger Lerner-Wren

October 25, 2021 Antonio Santos, Debra Ruh, Neil Milliken
AXSChat Podcast
AXSChat Podcast with Judge Ginger Lerner-Wren
Show Notes Transcript

Judge Ginger Lerner-Wren was elected Broward County Court Judge, (17 th Judicial Circuit,
Florida) in 1997; where she pioneered America’s first specialized Mental Health Court; dedicated to the decriminalization and diversion of persons arrested with mental illness, and neurocognitive disorders.

The Court is a national and global model; and has diverted over 23,000 women and men out of Broward County’s jail.

The Court was the model for The American Law Enforcement and Mental Health Project. This Congressional legislation piloted 100 mental health courts in the U.S. (2000).

Judge Wren has received many honors for her pioneering work: She was appointed by President George W. Bush to serve on The President’s New Freedom Commission on Mental Health. (2002). Voted Top 3 Finalists for the 2013 “Innovating Justice Awards” by The Hague
International Institute for Innovation of Law Foundation (HIIL Foundation) for the Mental. In 2015, The National Council for Behavioral Excellence in Advocacy Award for Elected Service in 2015.

Judge Wren is a Professor at Nova Southeastern University, College of Psychology and Neuroscience, and NSU Criminal Justice Institute.

She is an Author, A Court of Refuge: Stories from the Bench of America and First Mental Health Court; Judge Wren is a global speaker on Mental Health & Criminal Justice, Problem-solving Justice and Leading Cultural Change.

WEBVTT - Draft Transcript waiting for the final version.

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Neil Milliken: hello, and welcome to axschat we're delighted to welcome bank judge ginger learn and run.

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Neil Milliken: Repeated guest on access chat it's been a couple of years, so as a reminder judge ginger was the founder of the first mental health court in the United States.

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Neil Milliken: Real pioneer in restorative justice so we're delighted to have you back obviously you've been operating in unprecedented times, so I think it's a great time to catch up and find out what you've been doing and what's changed in the world of.

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Judge Ginger L. Wren: i'm just so happy to be here, I feel like you know, for the last year and a half, you know not only have we become so isolated, you know all of us.

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Judge Ginger L. Wren: From our regular routines and the people that we see and everything that we do that we've been so used to, but for you all, you know you know just to be here.

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Judge Ginger L. Wren: To be able to come back and talk about the experience not only, I think, is it going to be extremely therapeutic for me, but I think it's going to be, you know really enlightening.

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Judge Ginger L. Wren: For your audience on so many different levels because so much has changed the genie is out of the bottle and technology in the courts and it's exciting.

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Neil Milliken: And yes, so tell us your now, we were just discussing before we came on and then you're you're holding sort of hybrid hearings and that must have huge implications for how you.

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Neil Milliken: How you deliver justice, how you you do these hearings, but also really positive impacts, but also some challenges for accessibility to.

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Judge Ginger L. Wren: It does you know, and I want to just back off a little bit and maybe put it in perspective, she to have a global audience and I want to make sure i'm talking in global terms, so and that's you like, no.

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Judge Ginger L. Wren: I know you were following me at the time, but about six months ago, seven months ago, whenever it was during I don't know I can't remember the exact date, but I was moderating a global Panel for the.

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Judge Ginger L. Wren: For the for the.

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Judge Ginger L. Wren: hill foundation innovative justice awards.

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Judge Ginger L. Wren: That was held this this past year and I had the honor of moderating a global panel and and on the panel was the.

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Judge Ginger L. Wren: Justice Minister from the United United Arab.

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Judge Ginger L. Wren: Emirates and representative of the head actually at the Singapore Law Academy, as well as the technological director of Sierra Leone and we had a really exciting panel about the intersection ality of technology, the law, all under the umbrella.

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Judge Ginger L. Wren: theme, if you will, of how do we really promote access to justice, correct and I thought that what was so really ironic, in a sense, is here, I am.

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Judge Ginger L. Wren: moderating this panel and i'm coming, of course, you know from court, innovation and and Problem Solving courts and how do you promote human rights.

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Judge Ginger L. Wren: In terms of disability rights through the Court process, etc, but here we are these panelists have been working in justice systems that are so highly.

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Judge Ginger L. Wren: Technological um you know for so long it's really a part of their paradigm, and for i'm just going to raise my volume up a little bit and.

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Judge Ginger L. Wren: You know here in the United States, not so much, so the pandemic got really for the United States has been quite a catalyst.

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Judge Ginger L. Wren: In terms of the use of technology, how it gets implemented, and now, where do we go from here, which are all somewhat you know unanswered questions, and you know from my vantage for my perch.

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Judge Ginger L. Wren: But really interesting and exciting times because i'm not sure we were all prepared for the pandemic and the lockdown.

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Antonio Santos: So.

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Antonio Santos: great to have you back to it's it's it's no it's it's great to be able to have this conversation again because we somehow we keep ourselves engaged on Twitter over time, when you are always there that's that's that's.

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Judge Ginger L. Wren: Oh, I really appreciate that.

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Antonio Santos: So, looking at the know coo coo coo coo sitting what you just said, do you feel that all the situation that we have been over the last over the last couple of months.

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Antonio Santos: And we're somehow unblock it some of the changes that somehow that people didn't wanted to do before covert get my point know, there was some changes that would need it, if we're delaying them.

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Judge Ginger L. Wren: Absolutely absolutely you know, I think that particularly.

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Judge Ginger L. Wren: for individuals, you know just just let's just take individuals that that accessibility and getting to give driving to a courthouse and and you know navigating.

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Judge Ginger L. Wren: You know, a very large challenging courthouse like the one we have, for example in broward county and.

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Judge Ginger L. Wren: You know when the financial aspects of paying for parking and all the things that we don't necessarily think about.

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Judge Ginger L. Wren: very, very big issues for so many people that we see in the justice system, whether you know it's on the small on the civil side or the juvenile side or the criminal justice side.

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Judge Ginger L. Wren: You know these these are real could be very real hardships for people just to just to show up to court So yes, I think that um i'm not sure I think there was a latent like you know need to really get us jump started in technology and we are, I have to say, we are really on the move.

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Debra Ruh: it's exciting in a way it's it's too bad that it took you know, a pandemic, to get us here, but I know you are already showing leadership before in your courtroom so it's, it is very interesting and I.

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Debra Ruh: I hope that we continue to learn from these lessons and that we don't go backwards, but I also want to take you.

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Debra Ruh: I don't know how forward i'm taking you, but one thing I think is which I always love about the work you're doing is that, as I was reading about what what might happen with artificial intelligence and robo judges and can we make robo judges.

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Debra Ruh: You know less biased and maybe maybe human judges and things like that i'm just curious, with all that we've learned about.

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Debra Ruh: Digital inclusion and you know you said you're really sort of back to like a blended right now in the court, not in the Court things like that, but.

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Debra Ruh: Do any of these lessons tie into what we're going to do with our justice system to in the future with artificial intelligence, I know i'm going store to out there, but I know that you're really on top of things.

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Judge Ginger L. Wren: So you know you you're not going out there, I remember, years ago, and maybe Neil.

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Judge Ginger L. Wren: You know you have a better memory of this, but there was actual testing from IBM of you know their robotics and.

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Judge Ginger L. Wren: They were using their robotics you know in term and through artificial intelligence in terms of in the justice system and they were getting some really good outcomes, I think it was watkins if i'm not mistaken, was the name of that IBM.

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Debra Ruh: Right.

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Judge Ginger L. Wren: What was.

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Judge Ginger L. Wren: Something to that effect, somebody could.

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Debra Ruh: yeah.

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Judge Ginger L. Wren: And yeah you know it's pretty threatening when you really.

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Judge Ginger L. Wren: You know, because let's let's you know let's be honest, I mean you know, there are words human.

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Judge Ginger L. Wren: We all bring our lived experience with us, we bring our belief systems with us, we bring our cultural implications with us we're only human.

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Judge Ginger L. Wren: And you know I I I, I think that there's gonna be a place um I don't I hope you know it doesn't totally put us out, but I know that.

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Judge Ginger L. Wren: For example, just to give you a kind of I know i'm going off the track, but I think it's a cute example, and that is that i'm also, I think you all know, you know i'm also an adjunct Professor.

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Judge Ginger L. Wren: In the College of psychology as well as criminal justice and graduate studies teaching teaching, what I do essentially and Problem Solving innovation, how to lead cultural change for justice, etc, and that there was a.

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Judge Ginger L. Wren: Real.

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Judge Ginger L. Wren: plan in the college of psychology to develop a simulation a simulated lab for the mental health court and that, and all I kept saying is well if i'm going to be an Avatar judge you know make me blonde.

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Judge Ginger L. Wren: And that was really exciting and you know you think about wow you know what can we learn from that um, how could we improve justice and then does the aspect of competition right, I say.

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Judge Ginger L. Wren: Against robots you know, in the future, I I could just see you know this great film and.

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Judge Ginger L. Wren: You know, coming to pass Oh yes, I mean, I think that artificial intelligence, you know is is you know going off like a like a moonshot you know across so many chasm so I don't doubt it for one second.

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Debra Ruh: But at the same time, I really do believe that you know, maybe with the right data sets we can teach robo judges, not to be biased and you know i'm hoping hoping we could.

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Judge Ginger L. Wren: But our justice is supposed to be blind right.

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Debra Ruh: The point, but I always think that we need to have judges that see over the robo judges and look at their.

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Judge Ginger L. Wren: own forms.

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Debra Ruh: We have quality assurance and stuff going on, I think we will always need the judge ruins of the world.

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either.

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Antonio Santos: yeah to your point, we have to realize that, in order to feed.

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Antonio Santos: Ai we need data.

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Antonio Santos: and

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Antonio Santos: The data that we might be using today was generated over the last 20 years right and that's very difficult because it's very difficult to our you need to you need to make sure that you are not going to bring the bias from those decisions.

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Judge Ginger L. Wren: Well, said.

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Antonio Santos: And replicate them in the future so it's it's a very difficult challenge.

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Judge Ginger L. Wren: yeah it's very complicated I like to think if you're going to human eyes law, you need humans.

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Right.

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Debra Ruh: Good point I know that Neil wanted to comment on this to.

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Neil Milliken: One of the cases that concern me.

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Neil Milliken: That i'd read about was was the use of Ai to predict recidivism rates and essentially what was happening was that they were using historical data.

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Neil Milliken: And because of the historical biases amongst the communities of color and the the people of different ethnicities in different socio economic classes.

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Neil Milliken: were more likely to be picked up by the police, for minor offenses and infractions and therefore the prediction that they were going to reoffend.

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Neil Milliken: In the system was likely to trigger and they were much less likely to get released so so as we designed the systems, and I think there is.

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Neil Milliken: There is a need to speed up justice sometimes because people are left waiting for human decisions so so so there may be utility in doing some of this stuff we've still got to design.

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Neil Milliken: Our intent better rather than just relying on the data that we've had from from the the human based systems of history where we know that the you know.

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Neil Milliken: The societies have these biases that the socio economic classes that are most excluded are also the most likely to get picked up by the criminal justice system.

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Neil Milliken: You know if you're wealthy, you can afford a good lawyer you're going to look a certain way you're not going to be perceived as a threat you're much less likely to get.

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Neil Milliken: questioned by the police in the first place you're in a neighborhood where the police aren't looking all of these things you know impact on your statistical likelihood to be picked up.

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Neil Milliken: None of them actually impact on whether or not you're more or less likely to be inclined to do something that infringes the law.

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Judge Ginger L. Wren: No that's it's such a complicated it's such a complicated question, I think, fundamentally, because you know, I guess, when you were saying that Neil all that came to my mind.

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Judge Ginger L. Wren: Was I was Okay, you know if we want to get two outcomes right that are more just that are more equitable that you know really demonstrate the fairness of what our goals of our.

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Judge Ginger L. Wren: system are understanding that we always have to balance public safety, you know, then you want to go to the data sets as to what works correct.

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Judge Ginger L. Wren: Not where it's failed, not a fail first kind of data set but with all of the deficits that drive and contribute to that, but what works and then of course we know we that we have to that that what we need this beyond you know.

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Judge Ginger L. Wren: Those aspirational types of of of.

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Judge Ginger L. Wren: facts and data is, we need to make sure we can scale up.

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Judge Ginger L. Wren: And in order to scale up.

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Judge Ginger L. Wren: In terms of resources and making sure that systems that we could prevent trauma that we could.

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Judge Ginger L. Wren: You know, really reduce disparities that we can attack systemic racism and structural racism and all of that and become a more equitable empathic.

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Judge Ginger L. Wren: You know society as a whole, then we need to do things holistically and you know we just can't compartmentalize because we couldn't we could find really we can mind really brave data.

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Judge Ginger L. Wren: On what works, and you know that I think I hope you recognize because I tried very hard that when, for example on social media i'm always coming from that point of reference.

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Judge Ginger L. Wren: Yes, ending I really don't like to come, you know that's where I feel my own inspiration, like, I have to inspire myself.

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Neil Milliken: And we all have a similar mindset and that respect because we were all.

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Neil Milliken: on social media trying to inspire people with the positive intent and possibilities of.

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Neil Milliken: Technology and society to be better and to serve people better so so, which is why we've remained connected over over the years and why we're delighted to have you back so so it was never meant as a criticism, it was more mentors.

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Judge Ginger L. Wren: No, not at all I didn't take it as such, I just I was thinking okay well how do you match, how do you match the artificial intelligence with the scale of door.

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Neil Milliken: And I think some of that is you know you can't always rely on that historical data and you're going, you have to design new models based upon where you want to be experiment with them measure that.

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Neil Milliken: You happy, whether or not the outcomes are correct and then build upon that so that we can scale up this, as you say empathetic system of justice that really delivers what we will believe it.

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Judge Ginger L. Wren: Is.

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Judge Ginger L. Wren: Exactly.

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Debra Ruh: yeah gendron I know that in the in the all over the world, but it's just probably because i'm in the States i'm hearing, social justice, social justice it's said so much all over the world.

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Debra Ruh: And it's sometimes means different things to different people, and I mean that respectfully as well, but.

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Debra Ruh: And my team is starting to be brought in more into social justice conversations which we're so glad of but.

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Debra Ruh: I was just wondering if you could, if we could just sort of shift to that conversation because I personally think you should be leading a lot of these social justice conversations, because of the work you do in the leadership and innovation that you are.

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Debra Ruh: around the world.

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Debra Ruh: Well, it is a compliment but it's also true so.

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Debra Ruh: Thank you.

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Judge Ginger L. Wren: yeah you know.

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Judge Ginger L. Wren: When I started writing as many years ago um and I guess that that.

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Judge Ginger L. Wren: Events did did focus around when I was up for that international social justice award out of the Hague so many years ago, so of that I love that term of art and.

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Judge Ginger L. Wren: The way and I guess the way I visualize and activate social justice is in a very, very broad construct, and that is that you know, the idea of going back to very basic principles of human rights of justice and.

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Judge Ginger L. Wren: You know that the aspect of of fairness, the aspect of human dignity, the aspect of equality that we are all equal under the law that.

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Judge Ginger L. Wren: We all have you know the same we all ought to theoretically had the same opportunity for housing and that we ought to have the same opportunity to get health care.

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Judge Ginger L. Wren: That, and I mean quality health care that we all should be able to have food to eat and be safe from violence and you know so um you know so when you look at the Convention for persons with disabilities, for example, just using using that is just a really you know basic foundation.

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Judge Ginger L. Wren: of human rights on a global level, you can see the intersection ality that even if you're not a lawyer, even if you're not a judge you have a role to play.

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Judge Ginger L. Wren: In the promotion of social justice and what I tell people in my courtroom is that you know I say this to people that are incarcerated.

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Judge Ginger L. Wren: Because I don't want I want them to know you know we talked about you know we entry, we talk about the research base, we talk about.

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Judge Ginger L. Wren: therapeutic approaches to you know to to well being we want to create new pathways for opportunity, all of this falls to me it's social justice talk.

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Judge Ginger L. Wren: If we you know, and I, and I remember, years ago, I was getting a little lectured at a Community college not too far away and I I do it every year and it's there, it was for our Community college their psychology club, and I was right at the time when the film Selma came out.

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Judge Ginger L. Wren: And to commemorate, of course, you know the the incredible Bloody Sunday attack across the eugene pettus bridge and I said to every student go see some.

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Judge Ginger L. Wren: I go go see Selma because just watching that film is an act of social justice and it's the little things it's the little things it's the big things, but whether you're a physician or journalists toward economists door.

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Judge Ginger L. Wren: You know any work you do an educator of course lawyer, of course, we all, we all have a social worker, of course, you know we all play a very significant role in the promotion of social justice.

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Judge Ginger L. Wren: Oh you're muted dead.

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Debra Ruh: How longs it take me to get off mute ya know well, well beautifully said beautifully said, I know that Antonio also had a comment or a question, so I mean.

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Antonio Santos: We know that our communities are interested on on on.

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Antonio Santos: On this topic so.

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Antonio Santos: I would like you to if you if you can to tell us know how we are considering all the constraints, now that we live in.

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Antonio Santos: Our you were able to somehow navigate those constraints, to make sure that you are able to you know, make sure that that your decisions.

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Antonio Santos: Your Court was inclusive as possible don't have to somehow and balance those in justices are not because it's.

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Antonio Santos: You know it doesn't is a new situation for everyone, you might have people on the other side of the phone who are in low bandwidth others might not even have a phone, can you tell us a little bit.

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Antonio Santos: about some of those backstage stories that could somehow help us to understand what we what you have been passing through.

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Judge Ginger L. Wren: It is it is challenging it is challenging because, just yesterday I had.

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Judge Ginger L. Wren: An older.

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Judge Ginger L. Wren: Older individual.

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Judge Ginger L. Wren: disabled and not familiar with social not familiar with zoom doesn't have a smartphone or didn't know how.

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Judge Ginger L. Wren: To use it.

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Judge Ginger L. Wren: Even though, when I saw this person i'm not gonna say anything more about that person to identify that person, but.

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Judge Ginger L. Wren: We had a long conversation that this is how we're going to do the next hearing and you know tried to give instructions from from the courtroom.

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Judge Ginger L. Wren: And then you know sure enough didn't show up that person didn't show up on the zoom hearing and you start to go oh did that person get out of jail okay.

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Judge Ginger L. Wren: Is that person Okay, you know I don't want to have to issue a warrant for that you know, ultimately, where is this person so thankfully luckily.

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Judge Ginger L. Wren: For the people that I see not in both of my courts, but in the mental health court, I take phone numbers.

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Judge Ginger L. Wren: I have phone numbers addresses things like that I keep like a like a like you go into a doctor and you fill out a questionnaire.

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Judge Ginger L. Wren: I keep a notebook so I can contact family members and luckily the lawyer her lawyer was excuse me, the lawyer was able to call and I, and when.

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Judge Ginger L. Wren: We were able to call just said hey I understand you're not able to get on zoom but if I take my telephone.

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Judge Ginger L. Wren: and put it up to the monitor and put it on speaker, we could you know kind of make it work that way, so you improvise through a call in a call in on a zoom.

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Judge Ginger L. Wren: um so that was able to work, and I invite people and what about mothers, for example, who you know.

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Judge Ginger L. Wren: Have childcare issues and they're not able an ad and when we have hybrid hearings there, they are subpoenaed let's say to be in court, they could have asked to be on zoom but they didn't know to do that.

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Judge Ginger L. Wren: And, and so it and people that don't have the bandwidth and people that don't you know it's it's really problematic and so that's where we've got to make sure.

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Judge Ginger L. Wren: That you know there were some mechanism through some aspect of county government door the court system to you know, really, I think, get some data on this issue number one.

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Judge Ginger L. Wren: and understand where the gaps may be, and then work to fill those gaps I just don't know that we have what we don't know.

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Antonio Santos: Who to complete my question, I know that requires a next effort from everyone know, particularly from you from your teams from from the lawyers.

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Antonio Santos: Do you see that the value and that effort being recognized at locally at government is our people recognize because that's a huge effort is a you, the number of hours that are required to work and to have a completely different.

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Judge Ginger L. Wren: You know I wish all my colleagues can hear you right.

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Judge Ginger L. Wren: You know that's what I wish I wish every judge and every lawyer could hear what you just said, because you care about the process.

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Judge Ginger L. Wren: And you care about the effort that goes in to try to make these processes work and no nobody's talking about that nobody is is acknowledging wow, this is a really.

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Judge Ginger L. Wren: A really you know tough climb that you that you all, are doing under very difficult conditions, and I really don't think that that gets discussed.

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Judge Ginger L. Wren: Maybe it doesn't some circuits in some places, maybe more than others, I haven't really heard that I think that this is more of look.

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Judge Ginger L. Wren: You know you are responsible for due process for the promotion of due process under the law and we recognize that under the pandemic there's hardship.

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Judge Ginger L. Wren: You know, for you know really to get equal equal access um you know now to technology, etc, but there's really no real conversation, not only about the challenges, but again, who is getting left behind.

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Neil Milliken: And those efforts are.

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Neil Milliken: extremely important and I think that people don't necessarily recognize the.

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Neil Milliken: The large amount of effort, it takes to be intentionally accessible and inclusive and.

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Neil Milliken: They that the impact that has on the individuals that are trying to do it and the resources that really are required to do it well in scale so.

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Judge Ginger L. Wren: Exactly exactly no I was almost thinking well, maybe I need to go to that person's house.

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Judge Ginger L. Wren: I mean, maybe I need to go to that person's House you know, take a query but.

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Judge Ginger L. Wren: You know I have, I mean I remember, I once years ago, you know know pandemic, but there was a juvenile in a locked residential facility, I need an emergency here and I said to my court staff we're going down there were holding an emergency here in down at that locked residential.

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Judge Ginger L. Wren: It you know facility that program where this disabled child is it was that much of an urgent matter of course that program got shut down thankfully.

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Judge Ginger L. Wren: um but you know how do you bring justice to where the people are, how do you serve them where they are if they can't get to you even you know, through a technological process, and I think yeah, we have to get into the Community and really do a masterpiece.

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Neil Milliken: I think this is interesting i've been selling experiments in the UK that i'm aware of where.

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Neil Milliken: hearings are being held in places like shopping centers and so they're making them more accessible in a you know but we'll post mailing right, firstly because Mammon once everybody's money shopping centers are generally more and.

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Judge Ginger L. Wren: that's really interesting it's a win it's so it's a win, win.

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Judge Ginger L. Wren: yeah um and we do have a model of Problem Solving core model that our Community courts and there's you know they're not um you know they're not.

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Judge Ginger L. Wren: Really necessarily geared they could be, I suppose, geared to meet this issue and really activated to do that.

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Judge Ginger L. Wren: But they're you know where they're just not that prevalent, to be able, I think, to do that on a grand scale, but I love that idea that you could designate a Community Center to hold forth from and let the public know come there.

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yeah.

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Neil Milliken: And also it's less intimidating I think as a as an environment, the courts and you're you're making great efforts to make it less so, but but court buildings generally have been designed to be intimidating because they want to reinforce the power of the law and the seriousness of.

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Judge Ginger L. Wren: It is it is it's done, you know I mean if you, you can see my courtroom the colors of war on the elements.

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Judge Ginger L. Wren: You know, it almost looks like you're in a living, you know I met the architect, I actually met the architect of our core house in San Francisco at my one of my book signings and it was yeah it was a very interesting meet and yeah it's very pretty but yes, they are designed to really.

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Judge Ginger L. Wren: elevate that the authority and the dig it in the authority of the power of the Court yeah.

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Neil Milliken: So, so I think that these things are interesting, so the physical design and the aesthetic design has an impact on the.

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Neil Milliken: On the mental state of the people that are involved in the process and in the building and that's not something that a lot of people think about so thanks for bringing that.

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up.

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Neil Milliken: i'm also really interested in the in the idea of just ran on tour with a camper van bringing restorative justice or I don't know.

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Neil Milliken: You know.

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Neil Milliken: there's a lot of these things i'm not i'm fairly minor and people fall into the trap of getting into scrapes and these things escalate with the recidivism and everything else so.

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Neil Milliken: That the kind of justice that you're trying to bring way you're you're offering alternatives to to locking people up and new pathways.

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Neil Milliken: requires people to come to you or has you know, to bring that into the communities, you know would serve more people the other area that i'm interested in you touched upon was trauma.

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Neil Milliken: And I think that.

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Neil Milliken: Communities of people that have experienced trauma.

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Neil Milliken: are also much more likely to be.

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Neil Milliken: falling foul of the the criminal justice system, because that they start to behave in when they're traumatized they start to behave in ways.

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Neil Milliken: At their first point of contact with with law enforcement that make the law enforcement more suspicious of them, so how can we remove some of that some of the trauma but also deal with people that we know, have been traumatized and already traumatized communities.

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Judge Ginger L. Wren: I think it's the essence of social justice.

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Judge Ginger L. Wren: That how we.

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Judge Ginger L. Wren: become more interdisciplinary.

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Judge Ginger L. Wren: As as judges and lawyers and also in law enforcement, I mean, but just talking about the law as a profession and I I had this beautiful.

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Judge Ginger L. Wren: conversation yesterday with students over at my local law school at Nova where I graduated from.

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Judge Ginger L. Wren: Yesterday, and to remind law students, that this is a helping profession, the law is a helping profession, just like you know any health care profession social work we are.

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Judge Ginger L. Wren: Part of a helping profession, so we have to therefore understand that.

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Judge Ginger L. Wren: For example, what I teach and what I do in both of my criminal in both of my criminal divisions, whether it's the mental health court or my court of general jurisdiction.

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Judge Ginger L. Wren: Is we're problem solvers we're problem solvers creatively strategically i'm collaboratively and we're also educators.

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Judge Ginger L. Wren: So if if I have to be able to it's it's fundamental to me for individuals that have experienced significant trauma to help them understand what has happened to them in terms that they recognize there's hope.

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Judge Ginger L. Wren: That they can recover.

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Judge Ginger L. Wren: That I could help the poor could help them do that and that the Court wants to help them do that, and if they feel that that's something that they are willing.

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Judge Ginger L. Wren: You know, to try on, so to speak, and and and and and listen to what the research and data Antonio you know tells us.

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Judge Ginger L. Wren: About trauma about the impact of adverse childhood experiences and the impact of poverty, the impact of social determinants of health, which includes discrimination, racism.

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Judge Ginger L. Wren: You know i'm just growing up without quality access to health care, nutrition and and communities that have strong pillars of culture right.

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Judge Ginger L. Wren: And that are environmentally safe, so it crosses over all of these social determinants of health, which is public health, but the idea of I think the idea of creating a space in court process where we could teach and we could.

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Judge Ginger L. Wren: forum these I guess these bonds, you know these invisible bonds relate relational bonds with the people that we serve to trust us.

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Judge Ginger L. Wren: That is really the mechanics, if you will, of therapeutic jurisprudence, can we tip the scales toward humanism, can we tip the scales of justice toward dignity, and then we have a chance, then we have a chance to level the playing.

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Judge Ginger L. Wren: With the people that we serve, and maybe they'll be more open to saying yeah I get it for the first time, oh my God, I was the victim of domestic violence, I was.

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Judge Ginger L. Wren: I was a victim, you know of sexual assault, I did grow up in a in a in a home where there was addiction and poverty and violence or abuse, all of these factors, as you say, Neil drive behavior that contribute to entering to becoming justice involved.

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Neil Milliken: We could talk about this for ever unfortunately we've reached the end of our time we'll invite you back again showing.

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Neil Milliken: Thank you very much it's it's always a pleasure need to thank our friends at Barclays Access, My Clear Text and Microlink for keeping us on air and captioned we really look forward to you joining us on Twitter know it's going to be a great conversation, thank you very much.

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Judge Ginger L. Wren: Thank you, thank you so much for having me thank you access chat for everything you do, promoting social justice every day.

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Debra Ruh: Oh, thank you, we love you.

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Judge Ginger L. Wren: I love you all to take care and be well.