AXSChat Podcast

AXSChat Podcast with Jenny McLaughlin Lead of the Heathrow Airport Disability Network

December 20, 2021 Antonio Santos, Debra Ruh, Neil Milliken talk with Jenny McLaughlin
AXSChat Podcast
AXSChat Podcast with Jenny McLaughlin Lead of the Heathrow Airport Disability Network
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Show Notes Transcript

Jenny McLaughlin has worked within the airport industry for over 19 years. This began at East Midlands Airport as an Environment and Safeguarding Officer achieving ISO14001. The last 14 years have been at Heathrow Airport in a number of departments including Environment, Airside and now Infrastructure as a project manager. 

Jenny has delivered a number of business changes, from new aircraft de-icing process, introducing new IT applications, building a remote coaching gate in the middle of a live terminal, to significant maintenance work to the Northern runway. 

Jenny is the Lead for Heathrow’s Disability Network and brings that to her PM role. Jenny advocates that each person should have an equitable seat at the table and creating a safe environment to challenge and improve the way we interreact and build the world around us.

Jenny is dyslexic and has ADHD and believes that “the way that my brain is wired differently is an asset”. Finally, Jenny is a speaker at a number of industry events on ‘Systematic Inclusion’, bringing to life the criticality of accessibility if we are to truly ‘Build Back Equitable’.

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Debra Ruh  0:03  
Hello, everyone. I'm Deborah Ruh. And I have Antonio Santos with us, Neil Milliken decided to move again, he always moves during the holidays, so Neil is moving today. And we are so pleased to have Jenny McLaughlin joining us today. She's the project manager of infrastructure for Heathrow Airport. And she also is the head of their ERG group. And I just want to say that when I realized that Heathrow has an employee resource group for people with disabilities that made me very, very happy. Heathrow, as we all probably know, is one of the busiest airports in the world. And there has, I think that we probably can't even imagine how much traffic goes through that. So knowing that Jenny is there watching out for all of us making sure any passenger can successfully, you know, make a connection and be successful in Heathrow Airport. I think it's really great. So, Jenny, welcome to the program, do you mind just telling us a little bit about who you are and how you got into this field?

Jenny McLaughlin  1:07  
Yeah, so I have worked in aviation for coming up to almost 19 years now. I started at East Midlands Airport, which is kind of in the middle of the country. And I was there as an environment and safeguarding officer, and I moved down to Heathrow 14 years ago, and started again in the environment team, and then worked a bit in the SI department. And finally, now in infrastructure. And what I found going through all the different areas and working in the different parts of the company is that it's just like a very big city, there is every sort of person, every sort of job, every sort of role you could imagine. And then about sort of, I guess, almost three years ago, now my son was diagnosed with ADHD. And it really stopped to me and made me reflect on how I wanted the world to be different for him, how I wanted for him to not feel that he needed to be something he wasn't or feel that he didn't fit because of his disability. And it was really important to me to see what I could do to be the change for him. Now, education system, that's too big a thing to challenge, what I could work on was the work environment and in my own work environment. So at that point, I started to just upskill myself research, look into what what, what all have the big scape of world in terms of what inclusive, inclusive design is, in terms of what support is out there, or the different amazing charities ventures, everything that's that's going and just keep educating myself. On what I didn't know what, what, what I was unconsciously incompetent about. And the more I learned about it, the more passionate I became in this field, one of the first things we did at Heathrow was to join with the ADHD foundation and put on the umbrella project. So the umbrella project is a project that looks to shine a light on and celebrate neurodiversity as a whole. And throughout the year, different companies, different organizations, put a put up a number of umbrellas just to celebrate this. And up until when Heathrow joined in 2019. There had been no umbrella projects in the South. They were all up all up near and around Liverpool where the ADHD Foundation are based. So I talked to Ben Jones, who was the one of the project management offices, people at the time, I said you want to do something completely ridiculous. And he said absolutely. Let's do it. And we put on the umbrella, the umbrella project 300 beautiful, colorful umbrellas in the T fi four core and that that's when I really kind of decided that that was what I was wanting to do. I wanted to make sure that everybody traveling through working for visiting Heathrow felt they belonged there. And that's when I decided to go for and I was successful in being recruited as the lead for the Disability Network at that point.

Debra Ruh  4:42  
I was trying to get off mute. Wow, what a powerful story because what we do to make sure that our loved ones are included. It's It's fascinating. Sometimes we'll do more to include our loved ones than we will do for ourselves and we know that and that's what makes our community so Powerful too. I have ADHD and was diagnosed much later in life. And Neil has ADHD and dyslexia. And so I think ADHD is a superpower. But at the same time, it can be very, very hard on your mental health because it's great. You know what 65% of entrepreneurs have ADHD or dyslexia, 65% of us. And so it's, you know, there are a lot of leaders changing the world with neurodiversity. But I love that you were determined to make sure everybody was included was a beautiful story about the umbrellas. I, I wish I could see in the pictures when you send Antonio pictures, I would love for you to make sure you send that when that must have been a beautiful display. And what is simple way of just making people feel like, you matter. And we care about you. And you're included. And I don't often feel Jenny that places like I love the comment that you made about Heathrow being a smart city. Because I think what a lot of us sometimes forget how gigantic it is. The sea? I guess you don't have schools, but you probably do you got training, you have to have hospital you have? Yeah, it's just amazing how big it is. And every single piece of it has to be fully accessible to everyone, the customers, the employees. And that's just fascinating. How do you even Genie start to wrap your hands around a project that is just as gigantic as this? I mean, it's huge what you have to consider?

Jenny McLaughlin  6:30  
I think so i think i will i have i was diagnosed with ADHD late in life because my son was diagnosed I also have dyslexia, but I knew about dyslexia from from from primary school. And absolute with you eat there is there is something within the creativity within the determination, because you are constantly feeling like you're failing or you're not quite enough, it just gives you that drive to just do things that other people would think it would be impossible. And I think that's what that's why I don't see it as a challenge. But I do see it as a challenge that's wrong. I don't see it as an insurmountable challenge to be able to change everything we need to change in Heathrow. And I think whenever I get to a problem like this, I always take it back to the smallest parts. So I always look at, well, it looks very big and very scary. How do I simplify it? Where are the building blocks that created what are the what are the levers or, or areas that I need to really speak to in order that we can make these small incremental changes, which leads to the big change. So for me, what I started with was working with the team looking at our standards. So I have a number of standards across Heathrow, which is how we when we do our infrastructure work or whatever we we, the contractors and the designers, they look at the standards and they understand kind of where we're going. And so my partner in crime Sarah Marchant, who looks after the people with

we call them people with extra needs now, rather than people with reduced mobility, because as we all know, passengers are going through it's not just about reduced mobility, it's about so many other things that they need support with when they travel through our airport. And and Richard down from the engineering team. And we worked with a number of companies, Jacobs and CCD that she's now the most, and completely rewrote the standard around accessible design. It's over 300 pages long, it goes into absolutely everything in terms of considering all needs. So accessibility is not just about disability, it's about all of our identity characteristics, and making sure each one of them is considered when we make design decisions at Heathrow. And so that was the biggest piece of work we needed to do. But then what I needed to do was be able to not just leave that standard sitting there on the shelf, so to speak, which is quite often what happens with standards, but bring it to life for each of the parties that are making those critical decisions around Heathrow. So talking to our procurement team, so they could understand that then when when they were contracting with services when they were contracting with our contractors. And it was more than just about meeting the standard. It was exceeding the standard. It was understanding the value and the vision we have for actually becoming the most accessible airport in the world and combining and collaborating with us to deliver that. It's not just about a tick box exercise. If I've achieved that that's we've hit minimum we're good enough. No, we don't be good enough. We want to be pushing the boundaries so that others come with us and because what I feel very much around Heathrow is that with inspire demands words with great power comes great responsibility. And Heathrow as a brand has amazing ability to change the narrative for so many others. We have the capacity to do do things that others don't have. And if we can make that change, and then provide that information to others so they can make the changes, how much more powerful is that? And I think by each of us, you know, and I think this is where you know, where the valuable 500 comes in, you know, we or the billions strong that you have, you know, you each of us do our own small parts. All together, collectively, we make the change, because quite often, my boss will say to me, which and you asked it on top of the Titanic, aren't you and you're attempting to get it to shift. And I'm like, Yeah, but if I get a number of people stood up on here with me, and we all push the same direction, we will miss that iceberg. And that iceberg is really, it is it is the, it's the UN Sustainable Development Goals, it is not leaving a single person behind. We cannot, we cannot live in a world where we are only meeting the needs of the majority, because actually, we're not even meeting the needs of the majority because we don't consider their difference. I love I love listening to Ellie Chappell and flip the narrative. Because she really does take me back to my why, why am I so passionate about this? Why am I doing it? And for her, you know, diversity is just a fact. Diversity is a word we use when we want to say something's going to be difficult, when actually what we need to do is stop using the word diversity and go human, we are all human humans are all different. That's a fact, the fact that we have got into a mind space whereby we only decide to design in a way that excludes people, rather than saying that's not a disability anymore. We can't do that anymore. We can't say you can't play, we have to innovate to ensure that everybody is included, because that principle we had whereby we said it isn't possible. That's become a repeated, repeated fact, it's become just what we do, instead of actually challenging that and saying, it's not a fact. It's actually a decision, and am I comfortable making a decision that exclude someone out? Can I actually be okay with that, and if you can't be okay, and if that does hit against your values, don't use the fact that it's always been done that way to make yourself feel better actually accept the uncomfortableness and push yourself to innovate, to ensure that everybody is included.

Debra Ruh  12:37  
Wow. Can we please make you interested in President of the United States? Wow. Wow. And you know, what? I Antonio had a question A while back, and I didn't realize it didn't have a microphone. But I just want to say that I I'm totally in love with you now. Sorry, Jenny. But because this is the only way forward. And you're so logical. I, I'm just so glad. And thank you for mentioned billion strong in the valuable 500. Because you're right, this is all of us. All of us. I as an American have to want you to be wildly successful at Heathrow because once again, you're impacting all of us. Because you know, of the I can't even imagine how many people come to the airport. What, but let me be let me turn it over to Antonio, Antonio,

Antonio Vieira  13:25  
Jenny in order to succeed here, I'm sure he had to get in touch with a lot of people know, from the leadership team at  Heathrow , to partners, suppliers, You now many entities, what reactions you get from them? And what do you feel it was somehow the secret to succeed?

Jenny McLaughlin  13:47  
And normally, my reaction is, what do you want now? What trouble are you going to get me into? And so I think most of the conversations that I have had, are all wildly positive. Because when you put it in terms that they can no longer say No, when you've really hooked into that value, that they have that that moral compass that's inside them, it's very difficult for them to go, that's too difficult journey, because actually, they don't think any of the senior leadership team in Heathrow ever wants anybody to feel that they're not valued that they don't belong that and for those even that I have to push a little bit further and and get them to see this in a light that that does truly try and with them. I go back to safety every single time because fundamentally where we are now we safety is where we need to be with accessibility. And so linking the two things together quite often is incredibly powerful. And how I will do that is to completely talk about that actually accessibility and safety when you link the two together. And this is where I started, you know, sort of a year year and a half ago, was the CDM 2015 regulation. So we have in the UK, construction design management regulations that requires when we design something to be built, we have to ensure that it's designed safely, so it is safe to build it is safe to maintain it and it's safe to operate it. Problem is that the assumptions we make in doing that design are based on a white middle class, fully able individual who is not going to have any trouble doing the work we've done. The workforce that we currently have are all the majority of them are over 15, the majority of them will probably have some sort of disability. And that disability is probably caused by working in the construction industry. Because we haven't actually designed safely because we've not actually designed what they're capable of doing. So when you take it back to fundamentals, we have a regulation that we don't apply appropriately. If we take it back, even if we move it forward and say actually, we want to design so that a disabled person can be in the construction industry, how would we design it differently? How will we apply those regulations? So actually, we can we can, we can design it. So it can be safely built by a range of individuals with a range of different capabilities. Then talk about right, so we're now looking at how do we design it safely, you've now improved the well being and the ability and the less likelihood that somebody will leave the construction industry with a disability because you've designed it appropriately first time. So for me, and this is what I talked to all of the groups that I talked to so from everybody from Fergus hardens, the deputy director of construction within UK Government, talking to our infrastructure client groups, we need to understand that we currently do it wrong. Once we've except that once we've painted the support group and put our hand up and say, I've done it wrong, client groups are doing it wrong, designers are doing it wrong. We're not designing for our current workforce. And we should be designing for a workforce that we want to employ, which includes disabled people. And we can start to move in innovate into a world. And quite often, the analogy I'll use is the weakest link. So within universal design, you talk about the weakest link. Now, for me, the weakest link is the one that protects the system. So if you design, for example,

for something to be built, and consider that everybody on site has asthma, everybody on site has asthma, how would you design it differently to ensure no dust was created, so that those people with asthma can work on the site. Now you've done that, and you've designed it differently. Now, nobody will have long term or, or get long term health conditions, because we've designed something that fundamentally and you could apply that to any of the different disabilities. So this for me is really where I'm trying to get into all of the external organizations, and into the likes of our ice, which is our Institute for civil engineers. I've done talks to ecitb, which is our Engineering Construction Industry Training Board, to get them to see how currently, unintentionally, they're causing harm. And if they apply the Universal Design inclusive design principles, to how we decide and design things to be built, we will protect people better. And we will be able to include recruit an amazing workforce that will be able to design it. So people who have disabilities are included from the outset.

Antonio Vieira  19:13  
So let's, let's say, someone is traveling to, to Heathrow, they have a good experience when they go in, but they have a poor experience when they land somewhere around the world. So how can you also influence the organization's that work in the industry at the international level? How can you let's say how can you make your project or your ideas somehow open source? So if this is director here, that everyone else can use them in order to improve the services because after all, that's what we want, right?

Jenny McLaughlin  19:51  
Absolutely. So one of the things we've done I'll give you an example of something we've done recently. Say Sarah has been an I'm working with the University of ports. No, no Portsmouth University of kids with a P, I'll remember it later who have a group who are looking at dementia and supporting dementia. And they've they've created. And Deborah, I will share this with you and I'll find a link. And they, they've created a package of how to support individuals with dementia to fly. We actually sort of launched this at Heathrow a couple of weeks ago on the first of December, as part of our our disability, disability month at Heathrow. And what John Holland Kay who's our CEO of Heathrow has committed to do is to take that document and free issue it to ICAO, so that it can be shared with all airports around the world. So they can all see the work that has been done in conjunction with the university, and actually increase the ability of all airports to be more venture friendly, in their approach. So that's what we can do. And that's what we aim to do. The other part of the journey is obviously the airline in the middle. And we are working with our airline. So our major airlines in in particular. And so the likes of British Airways, we have a very close working relationship with both British Airways and with Virgin to support the actually the full end to end journey is accessible. And then to go on top of that, we obviously need to get to the airport, from the airport. And so we're also working with our local partners within the transport. So Transport for London, for example. I've been working very closely with an individual there, Michael, who is their diversity impact assessor. And looking at how can we ensure that, you know, the curbside and the roads that you enter into Heathrow are accessible? How do we make sure that it's small things like we be upskill, our forecourt managers to be able to observe and identify impacts to disability. So something that an able bodied person wouldn't even consider as being an unsafe thing like a trolley in the wrong place. Actually somebody with a visual impairment, that would be a major obstacle for them. So getting them upskill. So they can understand where are the things that they may not perceive? Before they learn. But once they've learned they perceive all the time. So all of these things, we are absolutely looking at the full journey, and influencing everywhere we can to improve.

Debra Ruh  22:52  
Well, it's, I'm so impressed with what you're doing. And I love that your CEO is making sure that the work you're doing is passed to other reports so that society and humans can benefit. That's just so that's very impressive. That's very impressive. Everything you're doing and I love how you're looking at it from all the different moving parts. Sadly, my brother in law was a pilot, a commercial pilot, and he has he passed away a couple of weeks ago. But one thing he said to me one time that now he worked for American Airlines, and he was the pilot that would transfer the the passengers but he said to me one time, yeah, I hear what you're saying Deborah, and I agree everybody should be included. But he said there have been times when we'll be delayed or something and there'll be like 30 passengers waiting to board that are in wheelchairs. And he said, I remember one time, there was some kind of delay. So we told the passengers that I apologize, but the passengers in wheelchairs will be loaded last because of whatever was happening. And he's like, and all these people stood up Deborah. And I thought and I said to him, I understand that it looks like they're just fake. But the reality is, my husband and my daughter right now they can't walk all the way through the airport to they do need the assistance now, they can still transfer. But it's like people not understanding and thinking that people with disabilities are faking it so they can get on board faster. It's just there's so many, many different moving parts that you'll have to consider. And I just wanted to bring up that confusing thing because I'm sure that's what people think, you know, it's like, Wait a minute. They're just faking it.

Jenny McLaughlin  24:46  
Yeah, I think I think so. It was something we again another another great piece of work that Tim saw has done is is the open tool report which is which, which again, I can share the link with you because it was the biggest survey of passengers requirements coming through an airport that's ever been done in the world. And what we needed to understand what we have understand understood now is that actually, the majority of people don't need assistance because of mobility. However, the only way they get assistance was to be put in a wheelchair. So as soon as you said you needed to be assisted, we put you in a wheelchair, what, so whether they wanted to or not, that's what happened. We've actually, and this is part of the reason why we are progressing, and we're moving forward, and it will be little increments, and we'll never, we aren't perfect, there was absolutely way we're not perfect, right now, we were a long way to go and be in changing the dial in the number of areas, we've got some old infrastructure that, you know, it's difficult to change. But what we've decided is actually, what we came out with the open to report is the flexibility, the ability to choose. And that's what we need to provide people, we need to provide people who actually want to, to transit through the airport, on their own cognizance, they want to go through the airport. And what we need to do is move all the barriers out of the way for them to doing that on their own. So they don't need the assistance, because we've already made it inclusive all the way through, we've already made it accessible all the way through, so they don't need to end up in our own our assistance. And and that can be everything from digital technology, you know, looking at the innovation out there. Is there a way ways and means that we can provide individuals who have an anxiety for a via various reasons are coming through the airport? Can we give them a digital tour of what they're going to go through? So they can experience it beforehand? Can we provide wayfinding in a way, that doesn't mean we have 900 signs up, which you know, even for me that's worked there for a longer view, I still get lost, I still get it still looking at the Science Guy, I don't know which way you're asking me to go? Can we remove some of that clutter in our visual and overwhelm and create it much more, you know, in a different way. And I do realize not everybody has access to digital technology. So we need it, we need a hybrid of the two. But there's so many other things we can do there to remove this requirement that if you have an accessibility need, you end up in a wheelchair and therefore taking away this it is this confusion which which can be met with maybe that not the kindest response that or they could have walked onto the onto the earth. Yeah.

Debra Ruh  27:42  
Yeah, yeah, it. I'm just so impressed with your work. And I know we've kept you on longer. But I definitely could talk to you for for days and days and days. So thank you. Thank you. Thank you, Jenny, first of all, and I want to definitely thank our amazing sponsors and supporters. Barclay's Access, My Clear Text and Microlink, but I know that Antonio has another question. And I also want to make sure Jenny, that we give you the opportunity to tell people how they can learn about the work that URLs and stuff like that. But let me turn it over to Antonio first.

Antonio Vieira  28:18  
So then what I would like to know, so you're doing all this work with your passengers, but you're also doing work with your employee network, right? So how do you, know looking to the work that you are doing with customers and passengers how this end up reflecting within your workforce.

Jenny McLaughlin  28:38  
So so the interesting thing is, is how much it overlaps. I think, if we've created an accessible place for our our customers, we've also started the journey to create a much more accessible place for our colleagues as well. And, and it's not just those directly employed by Heathrow, we have so many partners and other supplies that work in and around the airport from our ground handlers, obviously, our airline our pilots, and you know, the people who feel the planes, you know, everybody, you know, the people in the restaurants and the shops, all of these people. So if we created accessible spaces, we need to think also about our colleague offering as well as as well as for the passengers. And what I think the big things that I guess differentiate the two but have similarities or mirrors is around ensuring first of all, that the environment is fit for purpose. So what can we do to change the infrastructure or the technology to ensure that it's accessible and I know you guys are experts in particularly within the digital spaces and we get it probably more right for passengers than we do for colleagues. Sometimes we forget that actually, when you create an interface, you need to ensure it's accessible because you're preventing yourself Point employing or for somebody with a disability thriving. If you've not thought of that, we're getting far, far, much better. I now set on the Heathrow Investment Committee. So all projects are big projects that come through, and I get to question them. So I get to ask difficult questions like, Have you considered the interface? Is it going to be accessible? Have you met that the standards and hopefully exceeded them? Have you? Have you used it? You know, what user group did you use to test it? Did you have these kinds of individuals within the user group, etc, people got very used to me asking difficult questions. So they tend to now try and answer them before they come in. And this is only the first year of doing this. And then what I've done on the back of that, is just start to create some tools, because it's very unfair to sit there and ask the difficult questions and not provide the support. And so we've we have a, we have a process of Gateway lifecycle that you go through we've, we've indicated where through that lifecycle, you should be, you know, obviously, at the start very, very beginning, including it and how you would do that. And all of those kind of great things we've created at the moment, hopefully, we're going to pilot next year, is a procurement tool. So we can, when we are, when we're buying our assets, we can make sure that they are accessible to everybody. Where we're buying our services, the same thing that the service provider has considered all requirements for needs, not just your mythical average, per normal person that doesn't exist. In all of these things, we were then applying that to, you know, obviously, the the usual process that ERGs get involved in your your reasonable adjustments, your passport, you know, all of those kind of great things as well, awareness, raising sessions, making sure we've got training in in the right part, with the learning with our line managers, etc. All of these things are going on in the background. But for me, it's the environment that has such a big role to play. And one of the things that I've been working with the absolutely amazing Professor Amanda Kirby on is looking at the World Health Organization's International Classification of functioning disability. So how do we create a matrix that could look at the environment, the task in the individual and help us to be able to understand where where are? Where are the possibilities of adjustments, what you know, within within that spectrum, and where are the really hard difficult places so that we know where an individual will thrive and where an individual will struggle based on those three elements. So that we don't end up in a position whereby, as we know, most people acquire their disabilities, we don't end up in a position where people are, are feeling challenged, or in a difficult space, because they've acquired something, actually, what we can do is say, Well, this is the work and the task. This is what your requirements are, this isn't quite all fitting together. But over here, where can task and you fit better? So how do we transition you from here to there, you know, because sometimes, you know, if you, if you're if you're

within, you know, our security space, there are certain tasks that aren't going to change, you know, aren't aren't going to be able to be made fully accessible. And we all know that, you know, I wouldn't expect somebody to be within our operational field and have certain disabilities. But that's not to say there isn't somewhere within our organization or somewhere within Team Heathrow that absolutely would thrive, and how do you transition you from one space to another, that's my next big white whale goal.

Antonio Vieira  33:50  
To conclude Jenny, you mentioned that you were diagnosed just later in life, how to you see  your example as someone that for for other employees at Heathrow, that they feel comfortable in raising and talking about their needs, within their groups and with with the people that manage them?

Jenny McLaughlin  34:12  
And so, as part of the disability months, I was asked to do a very quick update on our CEO John holding case call, here's a monthly call. And I talked about my story. So I talked about the fact that I at one point in my life when I was trying to fit in and when I was trying to be what I thought everybody else wanted to be in order that I could progress and be you know and be valued. I made myself very sick. I mentally and physically I was rock bottom. And and I talked about this openly on the call and said the point where I realized while I was diagnosed and I realized that, you know I have challenges I'm not perfect. And actually, that's okay. It's more than okay. It's what makes me me. And as one as soon as I was comfortable with that, as soon as I, you know that I made that my own, my world changed completely. And what I've said to the to everybody who works within his bow, is if there's something that you currently feel you're being required to do to fit in, you need to highlight that to your line manager to, to the group to the hand group to our disability group. Because that's not okay. You don't need to change to fit the system, the system, the work environment, needs to change so that you feel that you can succeed. And as I said, it's not always possible maybe to be in the same role. That's not to say, there isn't another role for you that with that, you will be absolutely amazing.

Debra Ruh  35:54  
Right, and that that's part of being alive. I mean, part of being human is we always are shifting and changing. So, so Ginni, we're would there is there a place where people can go to learn about what's happening in Heathrow? Do you have it on your website, I mean, tell the audience how they can learn even more about what you're doing. Also compliments compliments.

Jenny McLaughlin  36:18  
And so, the so yes, if you go to the Heathrow Airport, and you look at, learn more about us, and there is information there around our accessibility, and all of those things that I've mentioned. And most of the stuff that I we do, I post on LinkedIn. So if you find me on LinkedIn, follow me and I post most of the items that we're talking about all or areas that we're working on there. And then within the group, so if you belong to any of the client groups, or those if you if you go to their sites, again, I've been sharing the information with them and then they publish it. So there are a number of ways that you can you can you can follow and and find out more and, and I will continue to do that as we as we go through.

Debra Ruh  37:13  
Thank you so much for everything this is this is truly changing the world. So, bravo, bravo. So alright, we will let you go. But thank you so much for being on today. And maybe you'll come back on and later in 2022 and give us an update. I'm very interested of some of the things that you're doing. So we definitely would love to get an update. But thank you once again, thanks for our supporters. Good luck meal. We hope you don't hurt your back moving and we will talk to everyone later.

Transcribed by Antonio Santos - preliminary transcript