Elevating Accessibility in Tech to Benefit Everyone

Unlock the secrets to creating technology that truly includes everyone with Yana Beranek, Ipsos's global head of UX, who joins us to unravel the complex tapestry of inclusive design. This episode promises to reshape your understanding of user experience, shining a light on the indispensable role of people with disabilities in crafting digital products that work for all. We examine Ipsos's strategy of engaging disability communities from the outset, ensuring their feedback is embedded in every layer of development. Their novel approach not only fosters accessible design but also addresses the recruitment challenges in inclusive user testing head-on, setting a new standard for the industry.

The conversation takes a heartfelt turn as we reflect on the profound impact that disability inclusion has on the economy and society. By sharing the compelling story of a blind woman from the Philippines navigating the world of banking, we confront the stark reality of exclusion in tech advancements. Moreover, the discussion underscores the importance of advocating for accessibility—not solely as a moral obligation but also as an essential economic catalyst. Through powerful community voices and persistent advocacy, we explore the crucial steps needed to transform accessibility from a niche concern to a mainstream priority.

This episode does not merely highlight the issues at hand; it is a call to action for greater accessibility in technology. We discuss the urgency with which the community expects corporations to respond and the tangible benefits of embracing accessibility for all. With platforms like AXSChat breaking down barriers and fostering vital dialogue, we emphasize that change is not just possible—it is imperative. So tune in as we champion a future where technology empowers everyone, and every voice can be heard in the symphony of innovation.

Chapters

• 0:03 Inclusive Design Research and User Experience
• 15:52 Advocating for Inclusion of Disabilities
• 25:27 Expanding Research on Accessibility UX
• 35:47 The Importance of Inclusive Communication
• 39:39 Advocating for Accessibility in Technology

Transcript

0:00

Axschat Yana Beranek

DEBRA: 0:03

Hi everyone, welcome to Axschat. We are recording Axschat on Good Friday and Neil was unable to join us but we appreciated Yana being able to join us and Antonio is joining us as well and we'll just say an early Happy Easter for those of you that celebrate that beautiful holiday. Today is Yana Beranek and I know I just said that really wrong and so I am looking forward to her saying it correctly. And she is with IPSOS, which is a French company and she is the head of their UX portion of the company. And so they do a lot of very interesting research and they are making sure that research is also done for our community, the community of people with disabilities. I had the pleasure to speak on stage with her in Chicago and was very impressed with what they are doing. So Yana, welcome to the programme. Can you start by probably pronouncing your name better than I did and tell us more about your company too.

YANA: 0:59

Sure. You bet. So Yana Beranek. I'm the global head of UX at IPSOS and happy to be here today. Thanks for inviting me Debra. It was a pleasure to meet you in Chicago and I'm glad to be with you today. So we are a global research organisation. We operate in 90 countries. But we focus on UX in 24 markets that reach about 40 countries. So that means that we are covering the US, Latin America, Southeast Asia, China, Europe and the Middle East, as well as sub-Sahara and Africa. So we do a lot of research understanding how to localise products and make them more inclusive to communities that are culturally different from the US. As well as -- you know, we do have a focus on accessible UX research and design, to make sure that our products -- that we are advising our clients actually, to help them build more inclusive products.

DEBRA: 2:11

Go ahead Antonio.

ANTONIO: 2:14

Given the work that you have been doing and some elements from the report, is there any particular trends that you have identified?

YANA: 2:28

Sure. So when it comes to inclusive design, I think the biggest trend that I see is that we need to simplify. You know, the ability to add things in tech these days means that our systems get more and more complex and that complexity is felt by the user. But for many people, people with disabilities and people without disabilities, that complexity is overwhelming. It can really create obstacles to usage. And so one of the things that we see a lot, and I know we saw it in the research that we did about employment sites, is that the more simplified things are, the easier it is for assistive technology to help people use the sites. But also, it's just easier to use for everyone. We do think that like the advent of the smart phone and especially voice assistance on smart phones, really makes the smart phone a great tool. But sometimes things are not designed well for the smart phone and we did hear in our research that a lot of people prefer to use some of the apps, on their phones, rather than going to a desktop computer and using assistive technology on a website because the mobile app is much better designed, with simplicity in mind to help users really navigate more quickly and efficiently.

DEBRA: 4:01

Right, I agree. And can we talk a little bit about -- because I know that Antonio was referring to the one study in this.

YANA: 4:10

Yes.

DEBRA: 4:11

But I believe if I'm correct you all done more than one study. So I was just curious, why did you all decide that this was something that you did want to engage in, which by the way, we are very, very appreciative of but we still see a lot of research groups not doing it, even our universities and colleges. And so I certainly am very appreciative of what you're doing but can you tell us a little bit about how you got into it. I am hoping you're going to say that your customers demanded that you all did this research.

YANA: 4:45

Well, quite frankly that's the truth. So we got started in accessible UX, by the request of a client and you met that client in Chicago. Meta has long been committed to making their products more accessible and they came to us and asked us to help. With many of our clients we find one of their biggest challenges is recruiting people with disabilities to join their research and so we have tried to simplify that for clients by building -- helping them build panels. And those panels are people who have self-identified as having disabilities and generally, it's of interest for our clients in technology that those people with disabilities are using certain types of assistive technology because they are very interested to understand compatibility issues of their designs with assistive technology. So it was a pull and we continued to see that it's a pull from our clients that they want to reach a broader audience that they want to design shifting left, right, to start earlier with the community of people with disabilities, to understand what would the ideal products experience be? What would the ideal digital experience be? And how can we help them reach those consumers so that we can get their input as early in the product development process as possible. As we I don't know who said it but it's still one of my favourite analogies, it's hard to put the blueberries in the muffin after you've baked it. So we like to make sure that we are giving our clients as much information early on about what will help you know, make a more inclusive design. And we do that not by consulting or advising but by conducting research that includes people with disabilities. So we like to have these panels ready so that when we, when somebody says, well, we don't have time, you know, to get that recruit. We can say of course you do. It's not hard, we'll just tap into our panels and get you some people that can give you their feedback, can test an experience, can tell you their ideas and can co create with you on your product development. So.

DEBRA: 7:20

Yana, one quick question and I'm going to turn it over to Antonio, but I also have done a lot of that the panels and stuff in the past but one thing we learned very quickly when doing research for all because I've been in the field for so long, was that you have to make sure that you're including people with disabilities with different skill levels. So one thing that was -- we were always inviting people that were you know, fantastic at a screen reader, you know, they are just -- because you know, a screen reader is a very, very robust piece of software. .

YANA: 7:52

Yes.

DEBRA: 7:53

And so a lot of people use these assistive technology tools in different ways. Some of us are novice users, some of us are medium, some of us are experts but the reality is most people are not experts using their own assistive technology. We wish they would be but it's like anything else. Our phones?

YANA: 8:11

Yes.

DEBRA: 8:12

I don't use all of the amazing abilities of my phone.

YANA: 8:15

Right.

DEBRA: 8:16

Right. So I was just wondering if that was something that you are also remembering to do because we are not seeing it sometimes in other researchers and I'm really hoping researchers remember, we all use assistive technology in different ways as well. So you just have to consider that part of the technological evaluation.

YANA: 8:36

Yes. And I mean sometimes we actually force people to use something they don't use that often , when we do the research because we are not necessarily prepared to support their preferred tool. So that's you know, I don't know if that's good or bad but it's probably close to reality. You know, we do hear, one of the interesting things that we have learned in research and I am sure you know this, about you know, people switching devices. So many people with disabilities who have a smartphone that is an IOS phone, they have a Mac and they have a PC. And they are using you know, Jaws with their PC, they are using the voice assistance of Mac and they are using their smart phone. And they switch devices based on what the site or tool they are going to use works best with. Which to me is just kind of inexcusable that we have created this eco system where people are having to change computers all the time. Just in a day, they can't just sit down and use their machine. It's ridiculous. But it's the reality, right. So I think, to your point, we also find in research the thing we are asking or the way we are asking people to test is not their preference. So we create inexperienced users by the very nature of our research but we probably could be more deliberate about that, in our efforts to recruit. One thing that we do want to make sure of though is that we don't want sessions to be too frustrating.

DEBRA: 10:17

Right.

YANA: 10:19

For a participant. Especially for someone for whom a session maybe a very exhausting event, either physically or emotionally or mentally. So we do try to make sure that our technology is going to work. So that we are not wasting their time or causing undue you know, harm or you know -- to a participant. We do try to be thoughtful about that. And we also want to make sure that the outcome for our client is not just wow, this doesn't work. We need to be able to walk away with some suggestions.

DEBRA: 11:04

Yes, we had testers years ago said, you know, this sucks and I am like, okay, our customers don't suck.

YANA: 11:12

Right, right, you got it. So I think that that is something that we try to balance.

DEBRA: 11:22

Yes, it's interesting though, as you explain it and I'm going to let Antonio come in but there is a lot of moving parts. There is a lot of moving parts with this. Even you know, it's interesting that we see and we are so glad the large global brands are coming into these conversations so meaningfully. But I think a lot of our community sometimes think we all aren't doing this and so we are going to have to do it and I see individual efforts being made. But I think large corporate, large complex corporations and large complex research, sort of needs experience with yes, certain experiences as well, to make sure we are getting that part right.

YANA: 12:02

Right, I agree.

DEBRA: 12:04

Antonio?

ANTONIO: 12:07

Sometimes we still have people questioning, oh, how many people with screen readers are going to access to our website. How many people do actually need -- are going to use our website if you make it accessible. On the other end we really -- we know that around 98% of the web is not accessible.

YANA: 12:28

Right.

ANTONIO: 12:29

How do you see the study that you did, helping us to make the case on the -- it can be an impact of good accessible design?

YANA: 12:41

Sure, well I think for one part, what we heard was that a lot of participants wouldn't use the sites that we were testing because they have found that they aren't accessible and so they go to different sites and we know that 71% of people with disabilities will abandon a site if it's not accessible. So do you want to reach that market or not; right? I mean, we have already talked in the US they say

1: 13:11

2 trillion dollars with disposable income annually for people with disabilities. I feel strongly one of the best ways we can make the case for this research was to get the numbers going. I recently was at the human factors engineering society's international symposium. And you know, looking at the medical device arena and whether or not those products are accessible, right, if that increases patient use, you know patient compliance, better health outcomes, there are all sorts of arguments that you can make for what a positive return on investment can be for the industry that you're in. So I think that a lot of it has to do with those decision makers generally, in my experience, they are data driven.

DEBRA: 14:03

Right.

YANA: 14:05

So we need to make sure that we have our ducks in a row, as we would say, of what is the data? And don't expect them to take you on your word; right? I think that's part of two why we enjoy, we recommend doing pilots, right? To say, okay let's improve this thing and see how it increases usage.

DEBRA: 14:29

Right.

YANA: 14:30

And then you can take that small pilot and suddenly everyone wants some of that. And you know that's what we have seen with researchers that are using -- our accessible panels we call them. You know, our panels of people with disabilities is that people see, oh, you could design this in a way that would allow more people to use it and I am, you know, judged on the number of active users I have per month. Well, you know, make the business case that resonates with the stakeholder and don't expect them just to buy in because you feel strongly about it.

DEBRA: 15:07

So true. I would say another thing, Yana. You mentioned some research when you were talking about trillions of dollars, we are leaving trillions of dollars. Well, that -- I want to say, we don't know if that's true. I want to also say that we saw in the United States we are leaving 290 million dollars on the table. I don't know if that's true and something that we have been doing for a long time is we keep throwing out these numbers but the problem is our community, which is something I'm really trying to help, our community is not coming out and the reality of our community is that we've not convened in a way that we need to, to add value. Another problem with our community is that at least 75% of us have invisible or hidden disabilities that we have to talk about. And Yana, I know you were talking about before we started, your vision as an eight-year-old girl and I will let you say that story. But I think part of the problem because is it true that we're leaving trillion of dollars on the table if we are not including people with disabilities and we are not understanding that people are human and as we age are moving into disabilities, when people do not identify as part of our community. So it gets to be a very complex thing is that I'm saying here. But the reality is when we say to people -- somebody said the other day, you're leaving trillions of dollars on the table by not including us. We cannot prove that. And I don't believe that is probably true. Because our community has to bank, we have to use transportation, we have to do things. So what we do, you've already talked this, it's very complicated how a person. You know, a friend of mine, Jasmin, she is blind, she lives in the Philippines they won't led her get a banking account by yourself because she is blind they say, it's not secure. Well, wow, I've so many problems with that statement but okay. And so she works around of the system and still gets her banking needs done. So are they leaving trillions of dollars on the table or are they creating all these great resources and products and services that we cannot access meaningfully. So don't try to upsell us, because we can't even use your basic systems that we desperately need. So the point I'm saying is that once again the work I'm doing with Billion Strong, trying to get us to come out and say, I proudly identify with as a person with a disability and by the way I'm 65 years old. I am slow an aging person. Don't decide I'm old though because I'm very healthy. I take care of myself. I eat right. People are living into their hundreds. A women just came out at 95 as being gay. Do not decide who we are. Make your products and services accessible to all humans. Anyway, sorry for that rant.

YANA: 18:00

Yes. I do think there is something to do that but I think there are products that people choose not to use. So for example, I know some people above the age of 80, who will not use Uber because they are intimidated by how to set up the App and use it. So they continue to drive themselves around.

DEBRA: 18:26

Right but that is not just age related, there is also -- I know young people that won't do that, so.

YANA: 18:31

Sure, but the point being is there is economic activity that could be happening of people using ride share apps. So when you say, is there money really left on the table, I believe there is.

DEBRA: 18:42

I agree. But just in a different way, I think.

YANA: 18:46

I mean there is the idea that people are using a service other than yours. But then there is also, the situation of people not trialling things. So you mentioned you know, digital wallets that maybe something that people opt out of. I know last year, I heard from a client who said, you know, we were focused on card security. So we created and you guys may even know of this product or the company that did it. We have a debit card that the three-digit code on the back, the security code, changes every ten seconds.

DEBRA: 19:24

Oh wow.

YANA: 19:26

And that's secure, right like a token and nobody will ever be able to write that down and use it and I think there were several blind organisations that came out and say, don't ever get a card from this processor because you won't be able to use it because, you can't manage -- it's not showing up every ten seconds in braille, it's changing every ten seconds. So that company lost out on all this economic opportunity. So you know, I think the point is not that they are leaving 1.2 trillion on the table. That's not the stat that I'm looking at. I'm looking at that there is disposable income annually. They may very well be spending it with someone.

DEBRA: 20:13

I agree.

YANA: 20:15

So I think we are probably on the same page there.

DEBRA: 20:17

It is just more complex than people say. And when you do that, then they -- the brands we are trying to convince whoever that is, so then it just weakens. Why I have to fight to be included, I don't know anyway. I would say that is the corporate brands. As we convene and we really notice who is and is not actually meaningfully including us, I think the community will have a much better voice than we have now. But right now we sort have to rely on amazing teams like you all fighting for us and we certainly appreciate that.

YANA: 20:52

Yes, I think you mentioned earlier, my vision loss which happened when I was in second grade. I've never been able to see well. I can't see anything really without glasses and now with multiple corrections in my contact lenses. But I do think that now that I -- especially as my eyes are aging and I'm still in the role that I am in, I have become maybe more of an advocate; right. And so to your point, I don't necessarily -- I don't know that we have to call out as much as we have to speak up to the reality of what we are, or what we experience and, whatever the reason is that I can't read something, doesn't matter nearly as much as saying, hey, you know this is not legible.

DEBRA: 21:44

Right.

YANA: 21:45

You know for me, you don't need to know why it's not legible for me, it just, it simply isn't.

DEBRA: 21:52

Right.

YANA: 21:53

So I think that's a good -- you know it does get back to the community speaking up. I think we do have to tell people because this is one of the things that surprises me, is the number of people who don't seem to be willing. We had an situation at IPSOS where we have someone join our team who was severely dyslexic and so we got some new tools and all of a sudden all these other people were using them too.

DEBRA: 22:21

Right.

YANA: 22:22

And we find out that we've got more than one person on the team with dyslexia and more than one person with a neurodiverse situation that makes this new tool really good for them. And you know, anyone could've asked for it. But they didn't. So, you do, there is an element of you know, advocating that I know is tiresome; right?

DEBRA: 22:47

It is and we are learning too though. You know what, I didn't even know I had ADHD and dyslexia . I knew that I was different in some ways, but for example, and I have said this On Air before, I struggle with my left and right, I always do and I was in the marching band to try to make -- but I have -- there is actually something with ADHD that is a spatial thing that causes, you know, so is my brain broke? I don't know or not. But this is just how I've always been and I think a lot of us are now rethinking you know. So I think it's a really good time to be talking about all this and identity and to be talking about it in the way that we are, we are just not saying stuff, we are digging into what we are saying which once again I think which is why the research is critical and we need the research and we need it from different perspectives. So that's why we really applaud the work you're doing.

ANTONIO: 23:45

I think, one element is interesting that you're talking about dyslexia and the availability of technology because for quite a period of time and even today, some organisation when they provide support for people who need assistive tech, people need to claim the need for assistive tech. But we have seen other organisations, who broadly deploy the assistive tech to everyone who wants to use it. And what we see from that is that increases productivity to everyone.

YANA: 24:15

Sure.

ANTONIO: 24:16

Without putting the burden of people saying, oh I need this.

DEBRA: 24:20

Right.

ANTONIO: 24:21

So there is clear advantages of rolling out and making technology accessible because everyone will benefit from it.

YANA: 24:30

Right. I think that's a great point and you know, the other part about that is that systematically, it would make it a better experience for the users because if you planned for those tools they wouldn't be an add on that everyone you know -- it's sometimes a struggle to get you know, the teams to agree to buy licences, to provide services, to make those services work with our current platforms. And so if we were planning for everyone, rather than you know, carving out exceptions, I think that just, to your point, we would be more productive for sure because we wouldn't be fighting with our technology and fighting those integrations which are not seamless, I know from experience. We all probably run into that.

ANTONIO: 25:24

Are there any other areas or sectors when you believe further research on accessibility UX could be impactful?

YANA: 25:36

Absolutely. So I think that there is still more work to be done in the employment sector because, all we found out is that it's hard, you know. So there is more to be done there. So I think financial services is a huge opportunity and it is a place where we do a lot of work. I think healthcare is a huge opportunity because of the intersectionality of disability and chronic illness and as more and more devices are -- became connected, right. So we see that in the diabetes space, you know digitally connected tools to manage diabetes which you know maybe accompanied by mobility issues or loss of vision ; right? So healthcare is a huge space, I think. So those are some that come to mind. I think also, online learning, one thing that we hear a lot is that everybody is just defaulted to kind of transcribe close caption. And so a lot of on learning content is pretty worthless for people with disabilities because the default now is like, that's handled. So I don't need to do anything about it. And I think that's really not the case, accessing that content and making sure that content is valuable. That probably plays across a lot of media as well, I guess. There is really endless I guess, I know Debra and I were in Chicago, we were with folks from telecom and certainly, as more and more things shift to our phones, right then there is that whole questions of how do the devices work and are the devices built for you know, for everyone? Do they work for everyone and I know, you know Telecom companies, have I think to some degree. led a good of good research in that space because they have a lot to lose, if they aren't making their systems and their devices work well. So you know, there are an array of sectors that need the research to be run with people with disabilities and designed in a more inclusive way, I think is pretty endless. I don't see that it's confined.

DEBRA: 28:10

Yes. Yana, I know that we are almost out of time and we want to. Do you want mind just telling us about a little bit about some of the research and also, you know, one thing that how can people find out more about the research you're doing. And I also would be curious if you would, you know what could the community do to support what you're doing as well? Because your work as well as a lot of other people's work, is making a difference for our community. Our community in the biggest sense of that word. So I would also be serious, you now, what do we do to better help you and the work you are doing and other researchers at the same time?

YANA: 28:52

Sure. I think one of the keyways that the community is help to volunteer for research studies. And they are compensated. So it's not -- it does take time but we do compensate people for this research. So it's not like we are asking you to do it for free.

DEBRA: 29:17

Good. Because usually we are asked to do it for free and we're really tired of that.

YANA: 29:23

Oh, no. Just know that it's not does not ask for volunteers because our clients are paying for the research. So we pay incentives it was and we pay fair incentives. So we don't want to coerce anyone to join our research with remuneration but we do want it to be worth someone's hours of time; right. So if you see an opportunity or invited by a recruiter because normally it's a phone call or an email that you will receive to participate, please do. I think also looking into those types of opportunities. So if you go to IPSOS.com, you know there are ways to join our panels. They are ways to participate in our surveys. There are ways to be recruited and part of why we miss people is because we do you know, often times send those invitations online. We send them via text message and if you're not in the pool, we are not going to reach you. So kind of looking for the opportunities but you know, I would say, like look at places like IPSOS. Neilson, Cantor, I hate to speak up for the competitors and I don't know if they do you know, accessible research. But we do.

DEBRA: 30:50

I don't either. We should know.

YANA: 30:52

And so I would say, look for those opportunities. I know a lot of our recruiters use LinkedIn as a way to recruit. So making it clear, somehow you know, that you are open to participating. Maybe mention studies that you have participated in, as a participant in the past might be a way to help us know that you would like to be contacted. So that is really helpful. And then, I think you know, we are trying our -- we are trying. I'll leave it there. I'll say we are trying to do this well and do it right and we ask questions and we get it wrong and I am never going to say that we are you know -- that we have achieved where we want to be. So I think don't get too frustrated by us getting it wrong because if we all get frustrated and about us doing it wrong, we are not going to be able to do it right ever and we, you know, we do try to do pilot sessions of our research before we start sessions with people so that we don't waste people's time. So you know, we are trying to do things. We are trying to educate ourselves but do have some patience with us because we are -- all of us are learning as we go. But we really do want to make it easy for our client; right. The easier is that we make it look or seem to our clients to have people with disabilities participate in research the more likely they are to come back for more and when they get useful insights that inform their product design, in a way that they have never thought because they just didn't have the right people in the room the more bought in they are. And that's something we have seen is that our clients who have started these programmes with us, have expanded them.

DEBRA: 32:59

Right.

YANA: 33:00

So this is not something when people do it a couple of times go, that was useless, I think we'll just go back to the way we used to do it. Instead, this is an aha moment from most organisations that they want to do more. And so we want things to go smoothly for them as well.

ANTONIO: 33:22

And, as market research company, IPSOS, do you see any interest from clients on these types of research? Do you see now there is a clear interest compared with the last three years?

YANA: 33:37

Yes, yes. In fact, one thing that we've got involved in and we just got involved in, in the last six months, is the Accessible Insights Consortium. So that's a group of both client side or you know, what we would say is in house research groups and vendors, like IPSOS that you know, provide market research services to clients, working together to talk about the challenges, to talk about how we do this, to introduce ourselves to each other. Because we do hear that clients are looking for vendors who can provide. Especially, you know kind of qualitative research, like we do and not just surveys and not just evaluations of their products. But actually interviews and sessions contextual inquiry with people with disabilities using their products and tools and services. But there is a feeling that there aren't enough researchers that are qualified and prepared to do that. So we've been working with industry to make ourselves more visible and also to help our corporate clients to understand how we'll work together. We actually have a conference coming up in April in Atlanta, where our consortium will be presenting workshops to dozens of corporate researchers, who want to know more about how to run accessible research. So I do believe that the demand is growing and like I said, it's not going to go backwards.

DEBRA: 35:23

I just want to say something, Yana, you had mentioned something about us being patient. I will tell you the community, we are just not going to be patient anymore.

YANA: 35:32

That is fair enough.

DEBRA: 35:33

We have been patient for a while and especially Americans with disabilities.

YANA: 35:39

Yes.

DEBRA: 35:40

I would not ask them to be patient. I personally am not asking them to be patient because they are so tired of not being included.

YANA: 35:48

By patient I mean patient when you're invited to participate.

DEBRA: 35:52

I mean, I agree with you. I'm just saying me understanding that right now, that's something that our community, yes.

YANA: 35:59

Yes, yes.

DEBRA: 36:01

Our community, it's everybody I also agree with you that we have to allow people also to learn.

YANA: 36:07

Yes.

DEBRA: 36:08

To have you learn -- so I just wanted to say this. It's funny because I was in LinkedIn answering some comments and we were talking about specifically that patient word. But no the community is no longer -- we are really tired of being patient with the corporations. We have been talking to the corporations about how important this is, at least since 1990. I say to corporations, you need to be talking to Yana because we are not going to be patient anymore. We are just not going to. We are tired of not being included. And why would you not include all humans. I wanted to acknowledge this for years and you need to make sure that everybody can meaningfully use it. So I just am being honest with you, Yana is that the community is not going to be patient with this.

YANA: 36:58

I understand that in the context of you know having been excluded. I think the thing is that you know, I think this is something that I heard from someone and you may disagree with this too but I think for those of us who are trying to row the boat together, we need to assume that people have the best intentions.

DEBRA: 37:20

I agree.

YANA: 37:24

Yes. If people feel like by stepping into this or getting in the boat, they are going to, when they do things wrong, they are going to be attacked or you know, that will not help move things forward but that's where I think that we have to be, you know thoughtful to each other.

DEBRA: 37:45

I agree. I agree.

YANA: 37:47

Yes. So that's where my request for patience comes in. Let's all assume that we have the best intentions because I think it is a deterrent to companies to do this because they think they are going to do bad publicity if they do something wrong. So they'd rather not do anything at all than say they are trying and get smacked on the nose for not doing it right and that's a barrier.

DEBRA: 38:13

I agree. But at the same time they have no choice they do have to address it.

YANA: 38:17

Yes.

DEBRA: 38:18

Because we have made sure with our laws, that we are not and it's just important for the brands to understand the community is just really tired of waiting. But I believe Yana, you I are 100% on the same page. I'm just being honest too in that.

YANA: 38:33

And I'm being honest too, right, because I do think it creates friction.

DEBRA: 38:38

Yes. I know in and the friction is evident out there.

ANTONIO: 38:43

But one of the reasons why we started Axschat a while ago, was actually it fits right very well in this topic because, we noticed that many conversations around the topic of accessibility and disability were taking place in silos, in very closed spaces.

DEBRA: 39:05

Yes, there are portions that weren't included.

ANTONIO: 39:08

So experts talking with experts and people with disabilities talking with people with disabilities. And then industries was not talking with those groups. So, that's why we started Axschat was to open these conversations and if you follow back the path of guests that we had over the years, we try to bring everyone, even people who are not doing it perfectly, because they were -- so that was always our aim and we always thought well, the places where you need to talk about accessibility is not just at specific places where the technologies address it, you need to talk at CES, you need to talk at big technology conferences, you need to talk about it.

DEBRA: 39:57

Right and that's how I met Yana, at a mainstream thing. But I do know that we need to close. We have gone over, sorry.

YANA: 40:06

We have a lot to talk about.

DEBRA: 40:08

We are on the same page but the reality is, I am sorry, Yana but for corporations to hear us, the community is not willing to wait anymore, so please contact Yana and get your research done because the community has -- I've always been nice. But really, we are really tired of it. And by the way, they do not have a choice because if they do not start including us, we are going to deliberately not work for them and our allies are going to join. So it's important for brands to understand that the community voice is getting much stronger. So it's important to use the experts that we are bringing on Axschat. So I mean that also as a positive thing. But speaking of Axschat, thank you, thank you to My Cleartext for keeping us captioned all these years. And we are so grateful for Amazon being one of our supporters and supporting Axschat so we can stay On Air and have these really powerful conversations. So thank you, Yana and Antonio. And we appreciate everybody that's working on this because as Yana said, this is a work in progress. Technology never sits still so we can catch up with it, ever. So we have to always and yes, we have to be patient with each other, but corporations, our patience is getting low. So please make sure you get good research out there. So thank you everyone.

YANA: 41:30

Thanks.