Fostering Authentic Conversations in the Workplace

Rachel Billington, AECOM's Director of People and Culture, shares her intriguing transition from policing to leading diversity, equity, and inclusion (DEI) at a major global infrastructure company. Rachel recounts an inspiring moment when her impactful speech sparked enhanced maternity leave support. As we navigate the complexities of DEI amid contrasting political climates across Europe and North America, Rachel sheds light on overcoming the cyclical challenges and backlash against 'wokery.' With a focus on fostering inclusive environments, she emphasizes the power of open dialogue to move beyond the limitations of cancel culture and encourages authentic expression in the workplace.

Our conversation also uncovers AECOM's commitment to promoting diversity in engineering, with particular attention to gender balance and early career recruitment in the UK. Rachel reveals innovative strategies, such as collaborating with inclusive universities and conducting STEM outreach, to address gender disparities. We discuss the significance of using authentic representation in organizational marketing and the broader implications of diversity across all areas, including age. From ensuring equitable gender representation at senior levels to preventing talent drain through age diversity, Rachel highlights how economic and moral imperatives align to build a more inclusive workforce.

Chapters

• 0:01 Corporate Diversity, Equity, Inclusion
• 13:31 Diversity, Equity, Inclusion Challenges in Engineering
• 28:21 Importance of Age Diversity in Workforce

Transcript

Neil Milliken: 0:01

Hello and welcome to Acces Chat. I'm delighted that we're joined today by Rachel Billlusion. We met at the House of Lords reception, where you learn where the saying drunk as a lord comes from, because it has bottomless glasses of wine. I'm setting you up beautifully here, aren't I, rachel? So welcome.

Neil Milliken: 0:39

I'm really glad to have you on the chat because I think that I listened to you give a speech and you actually changed how I did something as a result of me listening to you speak, and that was actually how I handle employees that go on maternity leave, because you told a tale about the fact that so many women I think it was the one when you were working for Met Police where one of your colleagues actually ended up coming back from maternity leave and going to the wrong building because the headquarters was so isolated. So I made a pact with myself that I would have or make myself available for, wouldn't be in contact with anyone in my team that was on the path, so they wouldn't find themselves standing up for themselves. Thank you, nicole. Thank you for all the other things you do, so maybe you can tell us a bit about your role at ACOM in leading DEO.

Rachel Billington: 1:46

No problem at all, and, neil, thank you. I'd just like to point out I wasn't drinking quite as much because I had a speech to deliver.

Neil Milliken: 1:52

I had my hand over the glass.

Rachel Billington: 1:54

It was very generous, which says a lot perhaps about UK politics, but I'll leave that there. So I'm Rachel. Thank you so much for your kind invitation to join you today. I'm delighted I. So I'm Rachel. Thank you so much for your kind invitation to join you today. I'm delighted, I'm honoured to be asked.

Rachel Billington: 2:07

I am a Director of People and Culture at ACOM and we are a infrastructure company, a global infrastructure company. I look after the region of Europe and India. I've been there coming up to yeah, it's gone three years now, actually three and a half years and I lead on. I did join as the head of ED&I, but actually now I've got the absolute privilege of not just looking after that but looking after all things organizational culture, which is I work with a well-being with a colleague of mine, and employee engagement, and also then looking for our future strategy and growth and what people, what culture, what skills do we need for future. So it's extremely exciting and privileged position for me, especially because it was completely unknown to me because I, prior to that, spent 16 years in policing, as you refer to, as police staff, not as a police officer. So very much a departure for me, but it's been a highly enjoyable departure really. Uh, I had a great time and honored to be working at a com as well yeah, fantastic.

Neil Milliken: 3:15

and um, I think that we were talking off air about the challenges that we're facing in the political environment and around DEI. At the moment. There's a really big difference in the sort of atmosphere around DEI in Europe and in the UK versus North America right now. But for colleagues in North America now, for colleagues in North America they're really nervous about the sort of backlash on wokery and so on, whereas I actually we're still seeing, I think, a growth in DEI roles and EDI and IDEA roles in Europe and I think there's still a recognition of that, although there are some political things that are pushing against it. So how do you, as a head of culture, balance all of this in a multicultural environment like the organisation we're now in?

Rachel Billington: 4:28

Well, it's not without its challenges, but you can't ignore that piece. But I'll be honest, neil, I've been in this game now for probably about 12 years plus. We've been through it all before it all comes back round. It's all cyclical and actually you know what does it all mean anyway, when people are saying that we're anti-woke Woke, as we know, the origin of the word woke is about standing up for injustice. Well, if that's what it means, I'm very proud to do that and actually I think most people are even those who might not like veganism or whatever one they want to pick at the moment would still actually quite not like their, for example, their daughters, to get equal pay and get paid less than their sons, etc. Etc. So, whichever one it is, I think you will find that there's a lot of noise there. But behind that noise and those headlines because they make good headlines most decent people, you know, start the day, come into work and want to work in an organisation where they feel they belong and that treat people fairly. So actually, what I do is concentrate on that bit.

Rachel Billington: 5:34

You can't ignore the political piece and, to be fair, there is this bit and, neil, when we met, we had that conversation about. You know, the ED&I population hasn't helped itself there. We've got to have a good hard look at ourselves as well about edni. Whichever words we want to letters we want to use diverse itself and, and you know, we need to evolve as well. Uh, there is this cancel culture we are working in at the moment where people are afraid to say things. When people are afraid to say things, when people are afraid to say things, they get into fight or flight mode and we all know what, how biases then play into that and actually what we need to do is meet people where they're at.

Rachel Billington: 6:13

We're all on a bit of a different spectrum in terms of how we understand egi and I where we're at, and there's nothing wrong with saying I don't understand something. And the majority of people I work with genuinely fear talking about diversity, not because they don't agree with it, not because they think it's woke, because actually they're just really worried about saying the wrong thing and causing offence and being cancelled in whatever area or format you're in. And we've got to get away from that because the more people fear it, the more it will actually just cause this apathy where we don't make enough progress. So the way I kind of manage. That is, I sense it, I understand it, but I also try and stay pretty pragmatic and work in the area of the fact that, as I said, I think the majority will still want a world where people are treated fairly and where we can be the best that we can be. Who wouldn't want that?

Debra Ruh: 7:08

Rachel, thank you for being on the program. I actually did a little search on AI about your company before we got on just playing around and I was very impressed with what AI said that y'all have done, so congratulations. But I also I just love that you were a police officer. I think there must be so much that you can apply from that work to the work we're doing now. It just must be very powerful on what you can apply to help.

Rachel Billington: 7:40

Just to be clear, I wasn't a police officer. I was a member of police staff.

Antonio Santos: 7:46

So I've just to point that out.

Rachel Billington: 7:49

It's like a civilian role. So I always worked in kind of HR, project management, support roles. I'm not sure I've got the strength and the resilience and the skills that I needed to be a police officer. Quite frankly, we talk about the challenges of EDI at the moment. You put yourself on the front line as a police officer. That is a very difficult role and I'm not sure I've got the skills to be able to do that one. Having said that, I worked with a lot of people and worked alongside police officers for a long, long time. You absolutely can transfer the skills when you get behind.

Rachel Billington: 8:23

We're talking about people here and it doesn't matter whether you work in policing, whether you work in infrastructure, whether you work on the NHS, whatever the situation is. Generally those peoples and those themes are the same. I remember moving from when I did make my leap to ACOM and thinking I'm going to feel like an absolute fish out of water here. I have absolutely no understanding of engineering and I've never worked with it before, from day one, the conversations we're having about our people, diversity, etc. Etc. You could have lifted them from ACOM into the Met and vice versa. They were just slightly different in terms of their interpretation. But actually generally we're talking about the same types of issues, which is many of us have got challenges where we are still not as representative as we want to be. The one real lesson I took from policing in particular was you know there are many challenges in policing and that's made many headlines, and quite rightly so. Having said that, there's a real, you rarely have to sell the business case for EGI in policing in a way that you need to do in a corporate level. Still now, I think you still there's rarely a day why I don't have to peddle my goods out and explain why it's important in policing.

Rachel Billington: 9:36

I'm not saying that 100% of people are completely bought in. I guess what I'm saying is what is really clear is the link between that and operational delivery. So the link between that and operational delivery, so the link between communities and representing the communities you serve, that goes back to in the UK at least, to the Peel Principles back in the 19th century. So that was baked in then and you can very easily use that. So I think that point you've made there about transferring skills and pieces over. What I've learned is how to make a clear link into why diversity is so important to your day-to-day role. If you don't operationalize it, people just think it's a pink and fluffy extra that you don't really need to do anything with, or that I'm the person who does that. If you can make that link and make people understand why, it will make their roles better and more effective. I'd say that's what I took from policing in particular.

Debra Ruh: 10:34

Well, and thank you for that was a really, really good response. I really appreciate it. I was going to be a police officer when I was an early teen and my dad's like no, no, he said you won't be able to handle the emotional part of it, deborah, my father absolutely was right, so I always admired people and thanks for explaining the differences and everything. But I agree you're able to take up so much of what you've learned from that and apply it, because we're all people. I also want to make one more comment and then turn the mic over, but Neil is absolutely right that when he's in the United States and he was listening to what we're having to deal with in the US as we navigate into this is the Friday before the United States we're going to do our election on Tuesday. I mean, people in the United States are really freaked out and everything.

Debra Ruh: 11:31

But I would say that one thing I'm seeing, Neil, that's starting to shift in the last few months is that we were definitely impacted the disability inclusion, accessibility field in the United States, the DEI, with this woke stuff that was happening with some people, happening with some people but I'm starting to see an interesting shift. The corporations have not forgotten about us, and I'm seeing the shift in a way that really encourages me. So I'm hoping everything will go fine with our election. It will be a peaceful, yeah transition of power and that all will be well. But in the meantime, very, very grateful for the work you're doing, rachel, and all the progress that you're having. So let me turn it over Antonio.

Antonio Santos: 12:21

Thank you, debra. So welcome Rachel. We know that traditionally, at the level of engineering and in some of the areas, they have been traditionally dominated by men. How do you navigate in terms of looking at mitigating aspects of working in the industry that has been male-dominated? At the same time, keep the balance and find ways that you change those perceptions you know, to make sure that you're able to attract diverse talent, you are able to position the organisation in a way that is also is not just open to everyone in terms of opportunities and in terms of how it's perceived.

Rachel Billington: 13:07

Well, I could probably talk about this for the next 10 hours, so I'll try my best to give you a concise piece. Look, you're absolutely spot on. Engineering has and it's still very well very highly male dominated. It's getting better. The way to there are many different ways to deal with it. What you can't do is just recruit your way out of the problem.

Rachel Billington: 13:31

So we have done, and at AECOM in particular, we've made really good strides in terms of our early careers and we are looking, particularly in the UK, generally at 40-42 splits in terms of we'd love to be 50-50, but time will tell. But you know we are doing really well and have increased that. And how have we done that? You know there's no saying, isn't there? If you do what you've always done, you'll get what you always get. So hey, press. So we started looking at different universities that aren't necessarily all male dominated and that are a bit more inclusive, etc. Etc. That you still have challenges. One of the challenges is you need to look at what's your sphere of control and what can you do. But one of the challenges we still have ACON will struggle to influence, quite frankly, because it starts at school. It starts when the kids are. You know, I've seen it with my kids when they're six and seven years old, all of a sudden they start to get messages. They're six and seven years old, all of a sudden they start to get messages. I've got both a girl and a boy and they get different messages about what their strengths are in terms of math, science, et cetera, et cetera, which are traditionally those engineering type topics you need. And what does that look through? And then that carries on all the way through in terms of how that maps out. That carried on all the way through in terms of how that maps out. And then they go. When you get to the engineering course there might be there's a much smaller number of women who start that course, and then there's a much smaller number of women who actually finish that course for various different reasons. So one of the challenges is your pull from the absolute outset is difficult. So what you do with that is you start to do some STEM outreach work and things like that, and we can do that as an industry rather than individual organisations doing that.

Rachel Billington: 15:19

There are still challenges that we need to get better at. The good thing is, for example, our company. We're not just traditional engineers anymore when we look at our challenges for future. One of the examples is things like energy transition and transport planning, et cetera, et cetera. There's a wider piece now and there's a wider skillset that we need than your traditional electronic engineering or whatever the case may be course. So things like you know, geography qualifications, energy qualifications, et cetera, et cetera. They are generally more attractive to women and have a higher representation of women on the courses. So it's starting to get better, but just coming back to that point, so that helps with coming in that side.

Rachel Billington: 16:06

However, there's still challenges. No matter how many women we're getting in at the bottom, there are still real challenges for them and they are still not represented at an equal distribution when you get to a senior level. So what you must absolutely do is recruit those women, but you need to promote them, develop them, support them as well so that they can. And this isn't just for women, because one of the challenges we've also had is, I think one of the challenges in engineering is they have fought diversity is just about women and getting more women in, and what we're trying we're trying to do is actually this isn't just a gender issue. This is much wider across many different characteristics, but what you do find is if you start making progress in one area, it naturally has a a good impact on other areas as well. So, antonio, that's a short answer to as short as I can get to what is a very complicated question. I guess my in summary, you know it's all the way through their career. It's not just about making yourself attractive at the recruitment stage.

Antonio Santos: 17:08

I just want to follow that on another aspect. We know those challenges. How do you see the importance of communication to make sure that sometimes, when companies in the engineering field communicate, you see a lot of men in terms of marketing, in terms of promotion? How do you see the role our organisation communicates to make sure that it's not going to somehow is able to put themselves in the position that they don't? The way how they communicate is somehow is not going to contradict about what they want to achieve in terms of diversity and inclusion?

Rachel Billington: 17:51

Completely, and I think that's a basic requirement now I don't think it's kind of a new thing anymore is it?

Rachel Billington: 17:56

You know you need to look at your collateral all the way through. One of the benefits we've had is because we're a global company. Naturally, we are very aware of the fact that things that might seem accepted in the UK, for example, don't transfer easily to the rest of our region, and we need to. We naturally start to think about what would that look like across in different countries and, for example, we're very active in India, so we need to make sure that's represented as well. So and the best way of doing that is using your own people. So really start to look at what collateral you're using, but make that authentic as well. Don't get a load of actors in with nice headshots and things like that. Do bring in your own. So, for example, what we use is we use a lot of the people from our employee resource groups and they enjoy it. They're ambassadors for us. We want them talking about our organisation in a way.

Rachel Billington: 18:49

So certainly, I always remember being approached once for an ED&I role for a bus company and various different reasons. I didn't necessarily go any further, but the one bit of feedback I gave them was the first thing I looked at. When I looked on your website was a picture just full of white men. Now, caveat, there is. That does not mean it's not diverse. White men are still diverse. Okay, let's make sure that's clear as well, because there's a lot of hidden diversity. But naturally, if you are from a minority group, you're looking for signs to see if I go there, will I belong? Do I get the feeling you look for that? And if the first thing that you're seeing is people who don't look or sound like you, then it's likely to be a reason to count yourself out. So I think it's an absolute default now that you'd need to make sure that any communication styles you're using, whether that's visual or not, are representative of wider groups. Thank you.

Neil Milliken: 20:02

By nature, these organisations are diverse. The challenge is to make them inclusive. Yeah, so it's not just about the sort of contents of the people inside, it's sort of the culture and embracing that culture and making sure that you then have those opportunities. And, as you say, it's not just about gender. We've been working on trying to address the sort of the disability employment gaps and pay gaps, but there's added layers of complexity in that, in that actually, a lot of the time, employees who have disabilities either don't identify or don't wish to identify, and then you can't actually address some of the inequalities within the organization because you don't have the data with which to do it. So, so, so sometimes you know it's it's almost like starting a um, a race but set further back because you're having to come from a point even behind, because you haven't even got to the start line to start measuring stuff. So so I think that the world of diversity, equity and inclusion is a really complex one.

Neil Milliken: 21:19

We all, I think, come into this area because we want fairness, we want everybody to have those same opportunities, to have those same opportunities. What starts off as a simple principle becomes really challenging when you start understanding the sort of complexities and nuances of all of the things that go on inside these large organizations. The other thing that you mentioned was the pipeline and education and so on. How do you accept people with non-formal qualifications into ACOM now, because quite often large and prestigious companies were very focused, as you said, on the premium universities and so on and you had to have certain degrees. Have you sort of widened the the net in terms of catchment for talent as a way to find those people that we would otherwise miss?

Rachel Billington: 22:32

yeah, we have. Could we do that more? I think we could. There is a balance here, because the one thing you don't necessarily do is drop standards Absolutely, and so that is really important, because otherwise that just perpetuates the myth that they can't do it. We told you that you know type of thing, so that we have to be careful there. I think apprenticeships have been really helpful with that. Apprenticeships seem to reach a group that would naturally count themselves out, for whatever reason, of your traditional way of doing it. There's still a stigma around it, which is a shame, and and I don't I don't that's just in our industry. I think it's wider, but I think apprenticeships are a real key to doing that. And also, then you know where we can supporting, um, you know um kind of social uh groups and things like that and community partnerships that we have. We've got a great one with a company called the Land Collective and that has turned into some and hey, to be fair, they didn't need any support. They were extremely bright, intelligent people and absolutely we want them in our organisation. You know they did us a favour rather than the other way around. So, yeah, you know, simple answer is Neil, absolutely, we've had to it still needs work. It's still, I think that you know, the whole further education piece and education piece still needs quite a bit of work. But where we can do, we are trying to do that. But that's needed education. You know, that's needed education internally as well.

Rachel Billington: 24:06

About and and I spend a lot of my time still asking those questions a job description landed on my desk the other day. That's firstly. Somebody asked me to review it, which is progress in itself. You know somebody's thought hang on a minute, would you just check this out? And it said you needed X amount of years in something, you needed such a degree. And I said why do you need that for this job? No, you're right, we don't. So we just took it out. It's not hard, but it just needs that awareness to ask those questions and just double check because it's easy. Why do people do that? Is it because they're trying to exclude? No, it's because they're extremely busy people. They need people quickly and you just default to what you've always done so that you know it's just that education awareness piece of things. Sometimes.

Debra Ruh: 24:51

And Rachel, I just want to come in I know we're almost at the very end, but and comment on what you were saying about apprentices.

Debra Ruh: 24:57

I know here in the United States we really moved away from apprentices, except in certain fields like electricians, plumbers. But I agree with you, I think it really has hurt the movement in so many ways, because apprenticeships are a very powerful thing. And I do want to applaud both Antonio and Neil and Atos, because what they did for apprenticeships in the UK, which got adopted by the government I just think we've talked about it multiple times, but it's a game changer and it's something that all of the other countries we can get access to, because at least we can see how they did it, and I think it's a very, very important program. So I know we're almost out of time, but we can get access to because at least we can see how they did it and I think they're very, very important programs. I know we're almost out of time but, neil, maybe you could just tell us in two or three minutes just what I'm referring to and then we can close.

Neil Milliken: 25:52

So, as Rachel will know, in the UK there is a levy or a tax on large businesses that help fund apprenticeships, and there's a lack of accessibility skills. Much in the same way, there's a lack of engineering skills in the UK, if not more so, and so we started down the road of picking on young people as apprentices in accessibility, and we did it as a software engineering apprenticeship initially, but then we actually did the work with an institute for apprenticeships to create the digital accessibility specialist apprenticeship standard, which then feeds into the educational planning processes and everything else, and, of course, it's open source. So we try and encourage other countries to adopt this and it's been great. Actually, people stick around, and the first ones to come through our doors was over a decade ago. We've only had one person that has not stayed in the field of accessibility during that decade.

Neil Milliken: 27:04

So I really like apprenticeships. I think they're a fantastic way of allowing people to gain. As you say, you need skills. What we can't do is lower our standards, but we can change the way in which people acquire those really important skills and change the way that businesses take on people and build those skills so that they have the right skill base within their organisation to meet their future needs. So I'm really glad that you're doing apprenticeships too.

Rachel Billington: 27:38

And Neil, just on that, if I can just very quickly. It's not just for young people.

Neil Milliken: 27:42

No, no, absolutely.

Rachel Billington: 27:44

You know as well a real success story and a lady who I work with and is very dear to my heart. She's basically at the end, where perhaps she's going to be thinking about retiring and instead what she's done, because she's so interested in learning, is she's starting an apprenticeship, and I just think that's such the best story isn't it Because it works for everyone.

Neil Milliken: 28:04

So they also have something called returnships now as well. So people that have been out of work for a long time and out of employment, there's actually additional funding to get people back in through the sort of same apprenticeship-type channel. We've mainly attracted younger people, but they are open to absolutely everyone and it is a great way of changing career. So, yeah, absolutely, and thank you for picking me up on that, because actually age diversity, a hugely under um represented part of diversity, um, I know that steve anderson from age diversity forum will be cheering you on right now, because I think that this is something that workforces are, you know um are also, you know it's a talent drain.

Rachel Billington: 28:59

When we've got a skill shortage, why would you not do that? It's not about doing the right thing necessarily. It makes economic sense to do it, doesn't it.

Neil Milliken: 29:07

yes, yeah, absolutely so. I think that it there is a a focus on on youth. That is not always healthy within businesses, because actually experience is important. Hopefully, some of us will have learned from our mistakes, still learning, yeah, always learning. So it's been a super chat. I'm really sorry that the time has flown by. I need to thank Amazon and MyClearTex for helping us, sponsoring us, keeping us on air and keeping us captioned and accessible, and thank you, rachel, for a really wonderful discussion today.

Rachel Billington: 29:52

That's great. Thank you very much.