Overcoming Barriers: BBC, Johny Cassidy on Accessibility, Journalism, and Advocacy

Join us for an enlightening discussion with Johny Cassidy, an inspiring BBC journalist and the leader of their Disabled Staff Employee Network, as he shares his remarkable story of overcoming accessibility challenges in journalism. Johny's journey is one of resilience and innovation, where he creatively turned barriers into opportunities, leveraging assistive technology to carve out a successful career. Dive into Johny’s passion for digital accessibility and visual data journalism, and understand why equal access to news is crucial for all audiences. His insights offer a powerful reminder of the value that diverse perspectives bring to trusted news delivery, and the ongoing battle against imposter syndrome many face in professional landscapes.

We also explore the fascinating parallels between the unpredictability of horse riding and the intricacies of advocating for digital accessibility. Johny illustrates how effective communication and strategic framing can influence stakeholders to embrace accessibility by showcasing its wide-reaching benefits. Listen to his heartfelt narrative about a father's efforts to shatter societal prejudices and serve as a role model for his daughter, pushing for increased diversity and representation in journalism. Through organizing impactful events and challenging existing stereotypes, Johnny emphasizes the critical need for disabled individuals in decision-making roles, ensuring that diverse voices are celebrated and heard.

Chapters

• 0:01 BBC Journalist Discusses Disability and Accessibility
• 9:16 Framing Accessibility for Audience Engagement
• 19:28 Breaking Barriers in Journalism

Transcript

Neil Milliken: 0:01

Hello and welcome to AccessFai. I'm delighted that we're joined today by Johnny Cassidy. Johnny is a journalist for BBC and also leading their Disabled Staff Employee Network. So, Johnny, great to have you with us.

Neil Milliken: 0:17

Really, we've had a fantastic conversation over the last 30 minutes before coming on air, Probably should have reported some of it, but so I've known of you for years because I grew up supporting assistive tech on the bbc. But it's great to actually talk with you in person. So tell us a bit about your role as a journalist and as a user of assistive tech, because I think that a lot of people don't really come across that many journalists that are assistive tech users outside of the context of the BBC and some of the other BBC broadcasters it's not that common. So we have a global audience here.

Johny Cassidy: 0:58

Thank you first of all, neil, and thank you to you, deborah, for inviting me on. It's such a privilege to be invited here. I've listened to a lot of the stuff that Access Channel have been doing over the years, so it's brilliant, first of all, to be invited. I've got a bit of imposter syndrome but I've had that for all my life. But I think my role. I've been a journalist at BBC for over 16 years and primarily I was a business journalist, business and economics journalist. More recently I moved over into digital and I am a system tech user. I use JAWS screen reader and I've always, you know I guess I've dealt with internal systems, software systems that we use. You you know a lot of it is accessible in many ways, but there's lots of bits of it that aren't so. A lot of assistive tech users will understand this that you're on the surface you're like a swan, you know you're gliding gracefully, you're doing your work, but underneath you're paddling away like Billy Oak because you're having to work in many ways with your hand tied behind your back and I think that's been a bonus.

Johny Cassidy: 2:12

When I first started the BBC as a journalist, I would have editors say to me I've worked on a Today programme and Five Live and Breakfast TV, all the major network programmes. And people would say, johnny, we're doing a whole piece on JTDP figures coming out tomorrow. Can you get me guests for today's program? Five Live Breakfast news channel? I'd say, yeah, absolutely. And they would have said, well, it's all within the contacts database, you can just go and find them there. And I couldn't use the database because it wasn't accessible. And instead of me really sort of saying no, I can't do that because there's a barrier there to me doing my work you know this is before I understood the social model of disability or anything I would have said, yeah, absolutely, no problem. Then I would have spent time finding my own desk and it would have met online to you know, the financial times or the telegraph or whatever, and find people that were talking about what was upcoming and the gdp figures, what to expect. I'd find an economist or somebody that was a good economics commentator and I would talk to them and you know, nine times out of ten, people will be coming up to me afterwards going, geez, johnny, where did you get that person? They're brilliant, they're really good. I've never come across them. Have you been hiding them somewhere? And it was because I wasn't able to go into the database. A lot of people would have just went to that database of the usual voices, and you know, so that was an advantage really.

Johny Cassidy: 3:43

That's not to say that we don't need to work a lot harder on systems. As a journalist, we've got lots and lots of different tools that we use, and for me, it's about making sure that those tools are accessible. Disabled people in all walks of life bring a lot of different understanding, knowledge, creative insight, innovative ways of thinking and problem solving, but to be able to bring that all to use, you must be able to have the tools at your disposal in the same way that everybody else has, and that's a bit of a long-winded way around me saying that. That's how I got really interested in digital accessibility, both in terms of the user but also for the audience. You know I'm somebody who is a news user, I suppose, so I want to be able to access news in exactly the same way as anybody else. So it's why I became really interested in visual data journalism and the accessibility of that, and you know that's just led me down lots of different routes.

Debra Ruh: 4:48

It's such a good point, I think that story you just told Johnny about how the database was inaccessible, but you didn't want to tell them it was inaccessible.

Johny Cassidy: 4:57

You don't want to be a whiner, right With so many people with disabilities.

Debra Ruh: 5:01

They just try to make sure that they don't cause any problems. But I'm also fascinated that you had to go through all these workarounds but you would have these really brilliant successes associated with it. Not that we're encouraging people to make things inaccessible so that we can be more creative. That's just such a powerful story and I assume now, of course, you don't have to do stuff like that. You know that's just such a powerful story. I just wanted to know.

Debra Ruh: 5:30

So thank you for that, and I also want to comment that you said an imposter syndrome. So many of us I know I have had the imposter syndrome for so long, but I like how you had the imposter syndrome and you think you should be on this program. We obviously totally disagree with you because your work is so important and I know I'm joining from the United States. We love BBC. So many Americans that I hang around with we would prefer to get our news from BBC as opposed to sometimes American options, and I don't know all the working parts that make it work at BBC, but I just know as a consumer I'm grateful for journalists like you and BBC, so I appreciate them understanding the value that you bring to the table as an employee. So I don't think you should have imposter syndrome, because we all think you're really amazing just saying Thank you and yeah, I record.

Johny Cassidy: 6:24

That'll just saying Thank you. I record that and just play it on my phone. That'd be really good. You know it's funny you should say I've been at the BBC 16 years, more than 16 years, and I still don't understand how it works. There's you know it's such a huge mammoth just an unbelievably massive, massive organization with lots of different parts and loads of people, loads of colleagues doing brilliant, brilliant stuff. But it's often hard to find people that you can tie up with, that are on the same page and wanting to do the same things. But they're there and quite often there's people doing stuff already that's not getting the audience that it needs or it's not getting the outing that it should have. But I think, as well as me being a journalist, that the BBC I'm also the co-chair for, as Neil said, the co-chair for disabled staff network, and it's common. It's that is, people, colleagues from all areas of the BBC together and it really ties things up. So the whole time I've been at the BBC has been within news, within the division of news, but there's obviously now I've met so many people outside news that are doing brilliant, brilliant stuff and it's for me, even coming on, as I said, you know, to this podcast and everything you know.

Johny Cassidy: 7:43

I feel as if when I started that role as the co-chair of our Disabled Staff Network, I found my tribe, I found my people, and it's not to me, it's not about impairment or condition or disability. It's about people who understand and have good empathy and want to make a difference. That's the tribe that I found and it's for years, you know, out of work I didn't really find that. I found people that were colleagues that I really got on with and I liked those people, but as friends I have found within. When I've started doing this work as an advocate and as a champion for accessibility and disability, that's when I found that people really, really have and they work themselves started doing this work as an advocate and as a champion for accessibility and disability. That's when I found that they were really, really hard to work with.

Antonio santos: 8:33

Thank you, johnny, for joining us today. I'm curious about your journey at the BBC. I would like to know from you when you joined back and you had to talk with people about accessibility, about what you were doing, about its importance, do you feel that when you are doing the same today, we are in a better place or the effort is still the same?

Johny Cassidy: 9:01

yeah, it depends what time, what day you ask me. It depends what, what, what. My latest win or experience has been win, lose or score, draw. You know you're always on a roller coaster with inaccessibility. I think we keep horses. My wife is really into horses and she rides. We always laugh about it because one day she might have a brilliant ride and it's so, so good and the horse is being brilliant and well behaved and everything and everything is 100% and the sun is shining and everything's brilliant. But if that mare has been like you're a bit of an idiot, you know then you're only as good as your last experience. That's what she thinks and the horse.

Johny Cassidy: 9:42

And for me it's the same with accessibility, you know you could be in a place where you've had four, five, six interactions that have all been great and people get it and yeah, yeah, yeah, we must do this. But the flip side, that you might have five, six, seven interactions and people go, yeah, but we can't do this because, xyz, you know. So, yes, it all depends. I think I I really have to be aware as well. I think you know it's very easy to get stuck in an echo chamber and stuck within the realms of people that get it, that you talk to all the time, you know, within different teams, and you go yep, yep, we need to do this. Yeah, absolutely, and they understand it straight away.

Johny Cassidy: 10:25

You know, the challenge for me is talking to people who don't get the need for digital accessibility. I'm always ready to try and win hearts and minds for them. For me, it's about how do we manage to do that, how do we ensure that you're that message is going through and it's constant. It's constant. Loads of people that I talk to in accessibility digital accessibility understand the issues around burnout and everything, because it's challenging it. It's challenging. Sometimes it just feels like you're banging your head off a brick wall.

Neil Milliken: 10:58

I think you, before we came on, had talked about how you're framing accessibility as a larger audience. Now, as an organization, that is all about communication. The key thing about accessibility is access to information. You know if you, if you're not accessible, you're not communicating with the audit. Now, if we were in retail, we'd be framing it differently. You'd be saying you're not making the most of your opportunities to sell stuff. But I think that you know, as people that are advocating for better accessibility, and you know that continuous work, as you mentioned, you know we do have to frame how we talk about it in the context of the people that we're we're working with we do, we do, we do.

Johny Cassidy: 11:47

I call this tickling trout, so I've done talks in the past with different people. My grandfather is a fisherman and they're gold fishermen.

Johny Cassidy: 11:53

He used to tell tall tales, but he used to talk to me about tickling trout, and it was when you were trying to catch a trout. It was easy to if you could get it and sneak up on it, but when it was in the shallows and you could somehow start stroking it, you got the trout into a state of relaxation and would almost jump into your net. So he would always tell me that story as we glint. In his eye. It's about getting people to do what you want them to do, but without them knowing that that's what you're doing. It's coming at them and what is going to be a win for them. When you're trying to get somebody to do something, how can you get it to be something that they can take away and say, yes, this is going to be really good for me. So I used to talk about accessibility and I could tell that people were nodding off and eyes glazing over because it's thinking your accessibility is something that people think is as hard, it makes your designs ugly. It's something that's going to cost money, you know, and that's that's all fallacy. That's all this is, you know. So it's about what? What way can I convince people to do what they should be doing but it's going to be advantageous for them and for any big organization, any media organization.

Johny Cassidy: 13:13

It's about audience and it's about reaching an audience. So when I start talking about the need for better alt text, better text descriptions, better accessibility of visual data, journalism if I talk about audiences, people get it. We are, and all media organizations have got reams and reams and reams of data and audience analytics and metrics and everything at their fingertips. So if we start looking at making content that is going to meet people and is going to be designed for people in whatever platform or whatever way that they're accessing it, that's going to be a win-win for everybody and that's what I started talking about when I talk about accessibility. You know that's going to be a win-win for everybody and that's what I started talking. When I talk about accessibility, you know I've free of. It is audiences, and you're right. Need your audiences are our customers. That you know you would be doing as the chief exec of retail organization I think I'm really interested to see the metrics right.

Neil Milliken: 14:15

So you just talked about, you've got all these metrics about audience engagement and everything else, and you know it would be super interesting to see the difference in levels of engagement between you know a comparable accessible versus inaccessible experience and see what that actually does in terms of driving up audience and engagement. Yeah, yeah, and I think that you know that's not just in terms of, you know, accessible for screen readers, because you know we all know that there's multiple different areas of accessibility and you know the BBC's done a lot of good work in the past on looking at these different aspects, including cognitive accessibility and so on. But you know, if you do the work on addressing all of these different audience segments, what impact does that have? Positively, because I think that one of the things that we lack in the accessibility world is actually really good, solid data.

Neil Milliken: 15:22

There's a lot of storytelling about how the benefits will be and a lot of very large numbers that people quote where, once you start digging behind it, a lot of it's based on assumptions rather than real metrics, and so the things I'm always keen to do is have really solid metrics and solid methodology behind some of the stuff we're talking about when we're trying to make those kind of statistical arguments about accessibility.

Johny Cassidy: 15:55

Yeah, I think you're absolutely right. I would also say that you know, historically, I know there's other assistive tech users that are parts of audience other than screen readers. But I think, if I look at it from the way screen reader users have been in the past, you know, alt text for a lot of media organizations hasn't been a priority. Yeah, so do you know. A lot of people have just got used to having rubbish alt text and I think it's only since the introduction of stuff like generative ai and the different apps and different platforms that you can do and you can get a really good detailed description of an image. So it's open in the world for a lot of people. And now people are expecting better alt text, better text descriptions on their images.

Johny Cassidy: 16:46

So we're coming from a low base, I guess, because people won't historically have said, look, this is really bad, because it's what we've always had and it is going to be interesting to see now, you know, if audiences start demanding better accessibility for for the stuff that they've got. Because you know, if we talk accessibility, for me it's about it's more about a user experience and it's about that journey, isn't it? You know, a lot of accessibility is built around compliance and whether or not it appears to, to WCAG 2.2 or whatever. But again, that's about compliance. We should be going further and further and further and further and providing really brilliant, beautiful user experiences. And then people come away going Craigie, that was good, that was good. Rather than having to struggle through to get the information that you're after.

Debra Ruh: 17:36

Yeah, and be so frustrated, say that again and you're so frustrated at that point, you're so frustrated that it's so hard to get the information that you need to get. Yeah, and Johnny, I just wanted to ask you I know that Antonio has a question too, but I just wanted to ask you a little bit more about your experience as a journalism with disabilities, because I know that I love the posts that you're posting, I love your voice and that's why I noticed the work you were doing. We love BBC. Bbc actually was the very first guest we ever had on Access Chat was BBC.

Debra Ruh: 18:16

But one thing that I think that some of us thought was, when AI came around, that it would just, you know, it's going to replace the need we have for journalists and reporters and content providers and stuff. I think there were people that were afraid of that and we did see layoffs and stuff. But also wanted to talk a little bit about your perspective. I mean even that you I'm curious how you even started at BBC and you know why. I mean I just think that I think that you have a really powerful story to explain to, you know, to the society. Anyway, I was just curious what you thought about it from that angle, and then I know I'll turn it back over to Antonio.

Johny Cassidy: 19:01

And then I know I'll turn it back over to Antonio, thank you. The truth is I got into journalism for a long time. It was quite an adventurous life. I suppose you know I'd like to. I lived in squats in London and was you know, I was really. I wasn't really focused on career, I liked what I was doing. I was happy.

Johny Cassidy: 19:28

Then, as every good love story happens, I met someone who had our first daughter and I thought you know what? I'm going to have to start doing something. You know, my daughter will one day get older and I wasn't. I didn't care. I never have cared what people think about me. But what really struck a spark with me was I started thinking I do care what people think about me through the lens of my daughter, and I was very aware of what people thought about disabled people. And if I carried on the path that I was doing, even though I was so happy doing what, I was very aware of what people thought about disabled people and if I carried on the path that I was doing, even though I was so happy doing what I was doing, which was nothing, basically, I knew that people would judge that and it would ultimately go on to my daughter, but I wanted my daughter not to fall into that trap as well.

Johny Cassidy: 20:22

My mum died and she left me a few pounds, and it fall into that trap as well. So I my mum died and she left me a few pounds, and it wasn't that much at all. It was wasn't much, but I used it then to go on and do my post-grad in journalism and became qualified. I was, I was really. I was broadcast journalism, I think in June, maybe 2008. And about two weeks after that, I applied for a job at the BBC and got it, and I realised how incredibly lucky I was. But I still think that was because of you know, my mum was there. She'd recently passed away. It was her money and I was determined that it was going to be something that was going to change my life, that it was ultimately going to be a benefit to to me and to my family, and I think you know I.

Johny Cassidy: 21:13

I then became a journalist and you know the rest is history, as I say, but it was.

Johny Cassidy: 21:18

It was because I didn't want other people to judge my daughter for having a disabled, blind father wow and I really wanted to do something that was going to be something that she could be proud of.

Johny Cassidy: 21:37

It wasn't for me to be proud of, but it was something that my children would be proud of, because, no matter what we say, how far we've come down the road or whatever, or, like you know, we're becoming more equal the simple fact is that there's still a lot of historical prejudice and stereotypical tropes around disability. People will say that my daughter's now a lot older and both of them are, but a lot of people will still say, but your dad's blind. And she says, yes, my dad works in the BBC as a journalist and for her and for both of them, it's brilliant for them to be able to come back and say, yeah, put that in your pipe and smoke it, and that's what I knew would happen, that's what I knew would happen. So it's taken away, that stereotype and that prejudice. So even back then I knew that I wanted to do something to try and make a bit of a difference, but it wasn't for me, it was for you know what my children were going to be in the future.

Debra Ruh: 22:35

Wow.

Johny Cassidy: 22:37

Bravo. So that's how I fell into journalism. Really, you know, it's been an incredible journey. The BBC is a really really good employer. Neil has been there in the past and knows all about assistive tech and the work that's there. But the tools okay, this is about social model stuff, isn't it? If I have a screen reader and I have compatible software and compatible platforms that I use, all I need is, like you know, is the gift of the gab, my mouse and an ability to tell a story and talk to people on the phone and translate their story into something that I think audience is going to want to hear.

Debra Ruh: 23:12

Powerful Antonio.

Antonio santos: 23:18

I have a good number of friends who are journalists in the different countries and if I go to the BBC website it's very clear where accessibility is reported and you are able to see different stories and topics in different areas. But why don't the journalistic practices do that more frequently across the pond? The BBC, seems, is an example, but why do you think others are not doing as much?

Johny Cassidy: 23:54

That's a really good point. I basically think it's again to do with that historical prejudice. I don't have the stats to hand, but 24% of the population is living with a disability or condition or impairment in the UK alone. You know that varies across the world, but I think it's about 1 in 5, 20%, a billion plus. As we say, there should be more stories about it, but the truth is that within journalism there's not enough disabled people at senior decision making levels. You're choosing what stories it is that we hear there's going to be stories that are going to be relevant to a huge majority of the audience, but if the editor has never had any experience or lived experience of that, then they're not going to understand. You know how relevant, important or pertinent that is to a big, massive part of the audience. So I think that's about another piece of the puzzle.

Johny Cassidy: 24:49

You know and it's another reason why I became the co-chair of our staff network you know I really, really want to push for more recruitment, for more career progression in the BBC, but also outside the BBC. You know we should be seeing more disabled journalists. We really, really should. So I've been organising a big festival in December and it's all about how we at the BBC, but also outside the BBC, get more disabled people into news and sports journalism. So it's about understanding what the barriers are and are and again, social model what's the technical barriers, what's the attitudinal barriers, what's the physical barriers? If we understand them and try and get other leaders in positions of power and positions of influence to understand them, if we can remove them barriers, then it should slowly begin to change. But we've been having these conversations for a long time and I speak a lot at conferences, journalism conferences, about diversity and the need for more disabled people in newsrooms, and time and time again I see the same people in the audience you know that are there and I said it's coming to the point where I'm going to have to say look, you know you were here the last time I spoke about this. What have you done about it? Right, you know, and you know people don't. People don't want to hear that. Yet um, and you have to be very gentle. You know with people and I've learned that you know and that's come with experience. My natural state of being isn't to be that gentle person. I'm a bit like a bull in the china shop sometimes. You know, just get it done, but that doesn't come across very well. I'm not all the time, so I think again. Let's go back to what I was saying to you need. You know we have to get, I need to convince people in a way that's going to be advantageous for them. You know and this is about audiences we get more disabled, nick. It's not rocket science. We get more disabled journalists talking about and it's not just disabled people. We need more diversity in general.

Johny Cassidy: 26:55

There's a lot of questions that need to be asked about journalism, the model. Some might say that it needs to be fixed or broken. How do we do more community-based journalism? How do we get people from different backgrounds that are part of different communities? I give them the power to be able to tell the stories about their communities, but in a really, really trustful way. There's a lot of communities that are distrustful of the media, for whatever reasons. When their stories are being told, it's being told through an inauthentic way or an inauthentic lens. So it's about trust. So there's a lot of different answers there, antonio, but I think the first thing really is to get more disabled people, more people from diverse backgrounds and decision-making levels in major news organizations, so we can try and hopefully filter the stories downstairs.

Neil Milliken: 27:50

Yeah, thank you, johnny.

Johny Cassidy: 27:52

And.

Neil Milliken: 27:52

I think that it's not just the professionals either. And going just full circle, before we close back to the thing you said at the beginning about the scheduling right and the stuff in the database, we often see the same faces as the commentators that are brought in on the news as well, and I know that the media trust has done some work to, you know, do coaching for people with disabilities so they can comment as well. But there is a habit of people picking the people that they know and that then then influences people's views. You know they came on last time. They got lots of comments. You know it's about figures and you know journalistic balance and all of those other topics you hear about that then influence how society thinks. You know those are maybe topics for another episode because we're pretty much hitting the buffers on time right now.

Johny Cassidy: 28:41

Well, I'll just say one thing about that. You know, about diversity. I've seen this. I've seen people hired because they are different, because they come from different backgrounds, they've got different lived experience to tell and they're valued. And I've sat in editorial meetings and they will say pitch a story and it doesn't land with an editor because the editor doesn't understand it. Through the same lens, and that same person will pitch another story the next day and just another story the next day. Let's go, none of these stories are landing.

Johny Cassidy: 29:15

But then somebody will pitch a story that the editor does get. Slowly. That person who was hired for their difference, for their diversity, thinks, right, okay, for me to get a story I have to pitch, like that. And you know, becomes those ages, beautiful, diverse differences that that person was hired for, become roped off. And there's pitching stories then that are a bit ubiquitous or a bit sort of interesting for the editor. So again, if you had people with different lift experience that were making those editorial decisions, that's probably where you would see the real value of the diversity. So we get people in news organizations and the news industry get people in at that entry level. But the other parts of the puzzle in the equation are to really foster inclusion below it, you have to get them moving up through so they're being able to influence decision making.

Neil Milliken: 30:10

Yeah, absolutely, we need that influence. Thank you, johnny. We have to close. We've hit the buffers on time. I need to thank our friends at Amazon and Mike LaTeX for keeping us on air and keeping us accessible. Look forward to continuing this discussion.

Debra Ruh: 30:26

Thank you, Johnny.

Johny Cassidy: 30:28

Thank you so much for inviting me. It's been brilliant Thanks.