Fostering Unity: The Future of Accessibility and Inclusion in a Changing World

There is a growing urgency to address the threats faced by DEIA initiatives in the wake of recent political upheavals. The episode highlights the emotional impact of these changes on the disability community, the need for solidarity, and the importance of advocating for inclusive practices amid the ongoing challenges. 

• Government dismantling of DEI programs 
• Emotional experiences of disability advocates 
• The connection between recent crises and DEIA backlash 
• Opportunities for activism and community-building on Bluesky
• The role of corporations in supporting accessibility initiatives 
• Global perspectives on inclusion’s future 
• The call for collective action and resilience in advocacy

Chapters

• 0:01 Disability, Diversity, and Accessibility in America
• 9:10 Accessibility and Inclusivity in Society
• 23:34 Navigating Messy Change in Society
• 27:38 Global Politics and Hopeful Innovations

Transcript

Neil Milliken: 0:01

Hello and welcome to AXS Chat. It's just the three of us today. I think we've got plenty to talk about, though, because there's been an awful lot going on in January, especially in the world of.

Debra Ruh: 0:14

DEIA.

Neil Milliken: 0:16

Disability, diversity, inclusion and Accessibility. Now, most of the time we've talked about the lack of disability inclusion in diversity initiatives. Over the last couple of years there has been a movement to append accessibility to DEI, and disability inclusion initiatives have come clearly into the targeting and into the crosshairs of the new Trump administration. So the last couple of weeks have seen the cancelling of all DEI programs, the removal of the accessibility pages of WhiteHousegov, the requirement to report people that have been providing training on this. Now that could also mean that we're reporting on people providing training on technical accessibility, not just disability inclusion stuff.

Neil Milliken: 1:19

And then yesterday we're recording this on a friday, so it'll be a few days ago by the time that you actually see this in response to the terrible plane crash in Washington DC, the President of the United States blamed the cause of the accident although there is no evidence yet because the investigations haven't finished on DEI initiatives and the recruitment policies that included people with intellectual disabilities is how he put it so effectively blaming DEI and disability for the deaths of 68 people for the deaths of 68 people. So we're now in a totally different climate when it comes to accessibility and diversity to the one that we were in only a few weeks ago when it comes to the United States. So I've talked a lot for the last couple of minutes. I know that this is something that you, deborah, are living through more than Antonio and I, because you're in the country right now, so you must be feeling it.

Antonio santos: 2:33

Yep, yep, and I'll tell you we're crying a lot, we're hugging a lot. You know I come in the library. We're just it's very hard to be here right now, but you know it's, yeah, you know it's. It's just really really difficult and it's hard to watch because I understood that you know someone on Blue Sky who I completely forgot who it is. So if it was you, I immediately forgot it on purpose, because I'm not really into negative, nasty comments. But they did make a comment on Blue Sky that how dare I put in a tag of DEI and A11Y together? How dare I? Well, I guess I dare, because you know we need things to be fully accessible, we need the world to be fully accessible for all humans, including old presidents, you know, because we are all aging, you know, and it's part of being human. But anyway, I can.

Antonio santos: 3:37

It's really hard in the United States right now when we understand that it's going to get harder and it's hard to even imagine how bad it will be. I have a daughter with Down syndrome who's at the library with us right now. I don't know how she will be impacted. You know, I get that. Anyway, I can get so sarcastic. I really need to watch my mouth, because that's why I've been saying to everybody we got to get together and we got to form alliances. See, that's one of the reasons why I'm doing Billion Strong, because we weren't being heard anyway and now we were actively being attacked in ways that we don't even understand. And we're being attacked for being human, which is ridiculous, but okay. But where do we go from here? Because it has gotten very confusing in the DEI the accessibility, disability, inclusion, whatever space. So really, what I'm focusing on in the work that I'm doing is what is the path forward to, you know, making sure that human beings are better included than they have been? Because I think you know there was there's a lot of complications with accessibility and and diversity inclusion. There is there's a lot of moving parts for groups. Because we're such a gigantic group of people all put together under the disability umbrella, some of the groups are going to be louder than the other groups. Sometimes groups might accidentally hijack the movement and make it all about them, just because people are trying to be heard. I think we're. I mean they say one more thing and turn it over to Antonio, but I think where we are now, I think we decided okay, I'm going to break you down into a whole bunch of different pieces. Deborah, you're a woman. You're an old woman. You're a woman with gray hair. You're a woman. You're a mother. You're all the different things that make me the person I am, including I'm neurodiverse.

Antonio santos: 5:18

Proudly, dei, proudly, you know, focused on accessibility, but I think we know how to make things accessible. So I think this is an opportunity. What's happening to make this more about technology. As Neil said, technology should be secure, technology should be private and technology should be accessible to all humans. So I think we got in trouble, because the accessibility moved squarely into this is about disability inclusion, when it's not. This is about human inclusion. So over to you, antonio.

Debra Ruh: 5:54

It has definitely been a few difficult weeks. When you follow people across the different networks, you really see also the difficulties that people are getting into it. So it's you know. People are really, you know, struggling. Others are basically demotivated, feeling hopeless in relation to the, but at the same time, I don't know how this is going to play in the future. I think it's still very early. A lot of people seem to be coming together a little bit more and hopefully that will be consolidated. At least that's some of the things that I have seen. I don't know where this is going, but I think this could be also an opportunity to bring people together, people that were apart, people oh no, I don't need you, you are there, I'm here. Now that we are under this kind of pressure. Maybe this is people be more open to talk with each other, maybe no, I'm just being hopeful.

Antonio santos: 7:01

I agree, I agree. Can I make one more comment? And I am one of 300 million Americans, I'm only one, but I will tell you, and I don't know if y'all have noticed this, but not all Americans are being quiet, but I would say a large majority of Americans are not talking about this on social media. I know I'm very active on social media, but I have pulled way back, and I believe a lot of Americans have, because we're traumatized, we're in total shock, and even the people it doesn't really matter how people voted, we've got it, we're there. So I think that's what's happened. We're traumatized and we're in shock, and so we are all in our own way, I believe, because we're strong people. I think we're trying to figure out how do we move forward past this.

Antonio santos: 7:45

We can't do anything about what's going on, we just can't well but what we can do is come together and make the world a better place. Sorry over to you, neil yeah, so, so, okay.

Neil Milliken: 7:57

so I think that there's definitely an element of people sitting back for the first couple of weeks of what this is and looking on and trying to evaluate what's going on and trying to process it in their brains, because it's so much going on and, let's be honest, that's deliberate.

Antonio santos: 8:22

Yes.

Neil Milliken: 8:23

That had been planned. Uh, you know, um, but what I do see now with this latest statement is, um, a significant amount of unity in voice of condemnation, or this particular outburst blaming with no, with no evidence, people with disabilities and DEI policies for the deaths of so many people has, I think, crossed a line for quite a lot of people that have sat back, that have not said stuff, because they want it to be seen as rational, not party political, not wanting to go directly onto the attack when it's a new government and we're paying a bit of wait and see. Now I think a lot of these organisations and a lot of individuals that have influence are saying, actually, I can't sit back, I need to make my voice heard now. So I think that what was said was so egregious so that it's incumbent on us to talk about it. This is not party political, this is a moral issue, and this is an issue about because no one knows what's caused this yet. So it's not political to say that what was said was untruthful.

Neil Milliken: 9:52

it's not political to say that without the knowledge, to say something untruthful is damaging right.

Debra Ruh: 10:00

We don't know about truth. No, no, I, yes, I know what you mean there, because some of the some of these groups who are coming up with these conclusions, they attack the media over and over and to discredit whatever they say and they create their own proofs, whatever they are.

Neil Milliken: 10:19

This is the Steve Bannon strategy of flood the zone with shit. Right, so I understand that, but at the same time, there is still an opportunity for a flooding the zone with truth, and we haven't done the flooding the zone with truth.

Antonio santos: 10:37

No, people are still traumatized, right, I know, as Americans we are, and it's coming so fast and people are freaked out.

Debra Ruh: 10:44

But I think it's important so fast and people are freaked out, but I think I think the important to highlight two other things. There are places that were able to bring people together, people communicate, and some of those two places have been hijacked yeah, no, no, facebook and x. So they have been hijacked. So those are places where we're not able to see that in a clear manner. So I think that also creates a problem.

Neil Milliken: 11:09

Control of information and the flow of information is really part of the political strategies and the fact that we moved access chat to blue sky is so that we still have the freedom, because any criticism of those policies or those approaches is deprioritized algorithmically and is most likely to attract hate speech and everything else, whereas I think on on a different platform which is growing I mean it's past 30 million users now, so that so that's really positive there is an opportunity for more truthful and honest engagement. I mean it's not that there won't be trolls on the platform, it's not that there won't be political disagreements, etc. But I think that it's not being controlled by political and physically motivated individuals. So I think that that's a glimmer of hope. I think the fact that significant organizations are moving off those other platforms because they recognize the toxicity is a glimmer of hope. I think that also there's some consideration going on amongst business leaders outside of america about what do they need to do.

Neil Milliken: 12:34

America affects the world. We know that because it has the tech industry, it's dominant economy, all sorts of influence happens and flows out from America, but it also doesn't control everything in the outside world. So within Europe there's still a significant commitment to accessibility. We've got the European Accessibility Act. That's actually accelerating, so there are reasons to be cheerful. I think the center of gravity for this stuff will be shifting. I agree, four or five years right, and and that leadership is going to have to be from the outside. Now there will be leadership in terms of resistance to what's going on from within.

Neil Milliken: 13:18

Uh, within the us, you know, organizations like drc, led by andy and brato they're going to be their lawyers are going to be really busy, yes, but I do think that there's an opportunity for businesses to continue, and even in the US, right, there are examples of where saying that you're going to continue to be strong on DEI topics is fairly good for business, right, it's good for the bottom line. It's worked very well for Costco, yet, 98% of their shareholders rejected the attempt to reverse their DEI policies. And what's happened? Everybody's signing up, people are leaving other bulk discounters and signing up where there is a company that reflects their values.

Neil Milliken: 14:17

So, so I think that there's, in anything you have these ebbs and flows, and clearly we've had a very significant shift with the change of administration, and they're trying to get in there early and again, you know, push their agenda. I think that they're so eager to do it that they may well, with things like this, have played their hand too hard and instead of slowly undermining stuff, which is what happened in previous time the administration was in power They've just gone, you know, gloves off and straight in there. I think that by being so absolutely clearly direct about it, rather than suddenly undermining things, they're actually going to get more pushback than if they've done it in a more subtle manner.

Antonio santos: 15:06

I agree. I also think it's important to note all the layoffs that has happened. If in our government, the United States government, dei and budgets have been cut, entire groups are being laid off. There's so many people that have been laid off and it's coming to our states, so it's pretty chilling what is happening if people aren't noticing their entire teams. There are so many people being laid off.

Antonio santos: 15:30

It's really, it's going to devastate what we're doing, but at the same time, you know, the good news is there are some things happening in the background to counteract it. So you can, it's yin and yang. You know you can get as evil as you want, but I'm sorry, we're going to get light and we're going to throw out some, some heavy light here. So I think what we're going to see happen this time, just like what happened last time, is that there was a lot of really powerful movements and different things in our society, in the United States. That happened because of the man being president another time. I'm not saying the last name, I'm not saying the name, I don't say that name, but I you know what I will tell you. In my family, three of my sisters made a decision to vote that way, and we're Americans. We can vote however you want to vote, but I'm just really afraid of what's going to happen to the people.

Antonio santos: 16:25

But in the at the same time, that it's not just about one person, it's not even about a group of people. It's about what you said, neil. It's about people realizing wait a minute, this isn't really who I am. This isn't what I want America to look like. I want to do this to my neighbors. No, not to mention, we're an aging society in the United States. We're doing this to ourselves and the world gets to watching, you know I just one more thing, antonia. Then shift it, turn it to you.

Antonio santos: 17:01

But I do know some things are happening in the background to counteract. So I am one of the counteracts. I'm going to make sure that I just want to do what's best for the United States and all of the world and all of the human beings in there. I don't care about politics, I don't care who's president, I'm not really sure how much it really matters. In some ways, I think we've got to be really focused on what we can do as an individual, our sovereign rights, you know, and I'm all about making the world a better place. I do it. Every day I call and talk to Virginia Department of Transportation about a pothole. So we each can do something to make the world a better place and make sure that people are not hurt as bad as some people are going to do. But anyway, over to you, antonio.

Debra Ruh: 17:42

Well. Business they want to make more money and continue to sell and attract more customers. Companies want to retain, want to make sure that their employees can access the tools and want to enhance innovation. So those things require accessibility, internally and externally. Societies they don't become younger by any kind of executive order, so that's not possible at all. So I think we need to continue to advocate, probably in a different way. Yes, we still have plenty of examples and good use cases to drive this. Where we want to go in terms of accessibility, in terms of disability, in order to make everything more inclusive.

Neil Milliken: 18:41

I think that businesses recognize that, as you say, but it also accessibility contributes to the tax take of a country. So, in the name of efficiency, what will actually happen is it will reduce the tax take and the money in for any government that wants to cut accessibility. So it's not really efficient to cut accessibility. In fact, it's rather the the opposite, because when you invest in making stuff more inclusive, making it work for older people, you're reducing the, the cost to the economy, you're creating extra drops, you're, you're it's, it's a booster, so it's you get a return on that investment. So I think that companies will continue to invest because they will follow the money, they will follow the customers, they will follow efficiency and they will follow, in the case of Costco, what their shareholders want them to do. And I think the state governments are going to do the same. Frankly, you know we're already seeing that that's the case in many, and some of the state governments are already challenging some of the exec orders on this.

Neil Milliken: 20:03

And that is, one of the things about the federal system of the US is that the states have a lot of control over these things. So what you don't get is equal treatment in all of those states. Right, because some states are going to do more than than others, but and the federal oversight was that equalizer, so you've lost that equalizer. Right now, let's see where. Let's see where these things go.

Neil Milliken: 20:29

I think that we as a community and as professionals, need to keep building and being unified and showing the value. I think that there will be a change of gravity. There may well be a focus more on actually the pragmatics rather than the performance of dei and accessibility, and I, for one, don't miss the idea of performative actions. Performative actions don't advance our cause. They are probably the sort of things of the flag waving and and we've seen the complaints about global accessibility awareness day where people complain about companies only talking about accessibility on a single day, or people saying that companies only care about they'll be GTQIA issues when they can paint their logo rainbow those kind of low-value contributions. Yes, they say that we value a little bit, but nothing tells the community that we value you more than actually doing the real work to include people, the real work to make stuff work for people with disabilities, for older people, and that work will continue.

Antonio santos: 21:48

I agree, I agree, I agree.

Neil Milliken: 21:49

So can we be positive? I think we can. How we do this? You know it's going to be tough.

Debra Ruh: 22:19

It's hard to be positive right now and I'm obnoxiously optimistic. It's you know something, it's one thing. If it's another country, it's really, really hard when you're walking it and everybody that talks to me from other countries wants to talk about it and I actually can't talk about it because it's just, I find it very scary and distracting and I'm empathetic, no, I think. In fact, when we look at national identity, I think what is happening is it actually is broken national identity is broken national identity Because I've seen a lot of people in the United States identifying themselves a lot more with European values than with values for the United States.

Antonio santos: 22:42

I would say, antonio and now I'm interrupting you I apologize, but we do have those values in the United States, just because a couple of some don't. Most Americans we do have those values. We do, we do and we have to decide what is okay. What is okay, deborah? What is okay for you? It's not okay. What's happening? Okay, fine, deborah, what can you do about it? Well, I can do a lot about it. I can't stop what's happening, but what I can do is I can make a difference right in my lane, and I think that's what Americans is. All Americans are going to have to figure this out and, by the way, not just Americans, but we have personal power. What are you willing to put up with? What can you do? I'm not saying get out your guns, but I am saying what we can do is we can have our voices heard in a different way.

Antonio santos: 23:34

Some of the DEI movement was confusing and added a bunch of confusion to it. Accessibility I'm sorry, guys, but accessibility sometimes is harder than it should be. It's confusing. You go in, you start digging into the W3C. It's confusing for people. But we're figuring it out, we're learning, but the reality is it was messy, it was a very messy effort.

Antonio santos: 23:56

Change in societies are messy, but it's going to go back to the world, neil, you said pragmatic. I think, actually the people that really want the world to look the way we do. I think a lot of things are going to happen positively. I will also say that the last time this man was president of the United States, there was a lot of good that happened. A lot of good happened, a lot of powerful movements that changed America, and it was because it was the counter. We were like we're not going to accept what you're doing there, and so I believe a lot of really powerful change is going to happen in the United States. And I also believe in the people of the United States. I do. We are strong. And so, yes, we look like we're a bunch of dummies right now, but we're not. We're going to find a way forward. We're finding it right now. Something really powerful just happened in my company. That never happened before, but it's now happening because of what's happening.

Debra Ruh: 25:07

So there are things that are happening. There are things that are happening in the background, and I'm not a violent person. I'm all about making sure that all human beings all over the world, not just in the United States. I think this is also a great moment for us all to understand who our real allies are.

Antonio santos: 25:14

I agree, I agree, I agree, I agree and I think in these conferences that are coming up, that, as an American, I'm getting a little afraid to travel right now. I think anyway. But these conferences are coming at zero project, which I love, and I love how it comes together and brings so many stakeholders together, but a lot of Americans can't come, a lot of Americans are getting laid off, a lot of budgets are being gutted, so, yeah, so we have the conferences, but a lot of Americans aren't going to be there. The Global Disability Alliance is about to happen in April in Germany.

Debra Ruh: 25:47

There's also a World Health Organization event taking place early in the month.

Antonio santos: 25:53

Yeah, so I think there's just you know we all have a problem, not just Americans.

Neil Milliken: 25:57

There's some really significant challenges, right, that have been made through those political decisions. The withdrawal from World Health Organization, appointing someone that's a back-to-the-room skeptic in charge of health you know those are problematic, right, and they're problems that could really go beyond borders, right, are watching with. You know askance, but at the same time I know that not everybody that voted Republican voted for the things that are happening against DEI and everything else A lot of people voted on, you know the promise that they were going to see their daily groceries become more affordable and all of those things.

Neil Milliken: 26:43

Now were they sold. A false promise, yes, but you know, sometimes people vote on different issues. So what I don't do is go.

Antonio santos: 26:52

You know, all Republicans bad, all Republicans ableist, all you know because that's not the case and just because you voted for him didn't mean you're a Republican anyway. I don't identify with either party. I used to identify with one. I feel that that party is very inefficient in leadership. Oh well, that's right.

Debra Ruh: 27:11

Just a comment on that One of the best governments that Portugal had over the last 15 years was actually a government where nobody had the majority was actually a government where nobody had the majority. Well, the parliament was completely divided in seven sections and they had to make agreements between the all parties.

Neil Milliken: 27:29

Yeah, yeah, so I mean both the US and the UK systems are like first past the post and that does create polarization. A lot of European politics is more around proportional representation and that creates this dialogue and negotiation style of politics that bring more of a consensus. It's not always working, you know. You look at what's happened. Germany is a bit unstable at the moment, to say the least. It's pretty unstable in France here, pretty unstable in france here. You know we live in very unstable times. But I do think that there's all you know, as you said, that there are positive things coming as a reaction to some of the negativity.

Antonio santos: 28:12

We are aligning and coordinating so.

Neil Milliken: 28:15

So it's one massive catalyst. So let's, let's bring together, let's find the, the reasons to be hopeful and to focus our efforts on what we can do and include. You wanted to comment before we close, yeah.

Antonio santos: 28:31

I want to say one more thing before we close. Also, I want to say on the air I'm very grateful for you, neil, and your leadership, and I'm very grateful for you, antonio. I think this is a time of us to really appreciate all the work that different people have done for our industry. But I wanted to say and maybe I said it before, but I also think it's a time because you remind me of this, neil right now the United States are. You know, we have been such a powerhouse, but you know, we're going to be 250 years old next year, and a lot look at what happens to civilizations when they're at their 250. It's not good, and so I think we have been too strong compared to the other countries.

Antonio santos: 29:08

I think it needs to be more balanced, and so I personally believe and I'm involved in this you're going to see a lot of innovation coming out of the Middle Eastern countries.

Antonio santos: 29:17

That's where I'm seeing.

Antonio santos: 29:18

I see the Middle Eastern countries not all of them, but quite a few of them really stepping up to say, well, you know, I'm not sure what you are doing over here, but we are going to really show what the world could look like.

Antonio santos: 29:30

You know, I know the crown prince of the kingdom of Saudi Arabia, had made a couple of comments on 60 Minutes, the news channel in the United States. He'd said number one his wish is that there be peace in the Middle East before he passes away, and I thought that was a beautiful wish. And then also, he wants the Kingdom of Saudi Arabia, for example, to be a destination like Europe, where everybody wants to come to it. So I will tell you, I know for sure we're seeing quite a few really powerful innovations that are including inclusion, in that all human beings get to participate in some of the Middle Eastern countries, like the Kingdom of Saudi Arabia, jordan, the UAE, and so, you know, maybe, as we try to figure out a new way forward in the United States, maybe there's real opportunity for other countries to step up and show the world hey, look what Europe's doing. God bless Europe, you know. So, yeah, maybe we can be hopeful that we're all stronger together and it's not just one country telling everybody else what to do.

Neil Milliken: 30:34

And certainly we've spent the last 10 years on Axis Chat trying to highlight that innovation around the globe. So let's be sure to make sure we continue with that, with the support of our friends Amazon and my Clear Text, who are steadfast with us. Yes, yes.