Transforming Assistive Technology: Steve Tyler on Accessibility, Innovation, and Inclusion

Unlock the secrets of transforming assistive technology with Steve Tyler, the pioneering Director of Assistive Tech and Transformation at Leonard Cheshire. Join us as Steve shares his compelling journey from the world of clinical psychology to becoming a beacon for disability support and technology integration. With invaluable insights into collaborations with major tech companies, discover how Steve is championing accessibility and inclusive practices that are reshaping the tech landscape for people with disabilities.

Dive into the untapped market potential of accessible design and the strategic integration of accessibility within mainstream business. Through captivating examples like synthetic speech technology and Braille labeling for pharmaceuticals, we reveal how inclusive design not only meets diverse user needs but also powers sustainable business propositions. Steve sheds light on the importance of understanding industry decision-making and leveraging the art of storytelling to drive the adoption of inclusive practices.

Navigate the pressing challenges within the disability community, where educational and employment opportunities have hit a frustrating plateau. Steve addresses the biases entrenched in these sectors and the inefficiencies plaguing assistive technology development. From the crucial role of Braille in education and employment to the financial entanglements of large charitable organizations, gain a deeper understanding of what it takes to forge a more cohesive and effective approach to disability inclusion and innovation.

Chapters

• 0:01 Innovations in Assistive Technology and Disability
• 6:52 Innovating Accessible Products for Corporates
• 21:38 Challenges in Disability Inclusion
• 29:10 Challenges in Disability Funding and Innovation
• 35:36 Issues With Funding in Third Sector

Transcript

Neil Milliken: 0:01

Hello and welcome AXSChat. Three Musketeers are back this week Myself, debra and Antonio. We're all really pleased to be able to welcome Steve Tyler. Steve is the Director of Assistive Tech and Transformation at Leonard Cheshire. I've known Steve and Debra's known Steve for a very long time in various roles, going back from RNIB etc. So, Steve, I'm surprised we've not had you on before. Glad to have you on now. It's really great to have you with us. Can you please tell us a bit about your role, what you're doing now and then maybe we'll go a bit back into the animals of time and the history, because you've done an awful lot over the years.

Steve Tyler: 0:42

Thanks very much, neil, and thanks all of of you for inviting me on Right now. is a pan-disability organisation, so we run services across the UK. We are really centred around enabling people to live, learn and work in a manner they choose. We tend to focus on people with disabilities with relatively complex requirements, I'd say, but it covers our interests, cover everything from cognitive challenges, learning and communication challenges, physical challenges and quite often a mix of all of those, and sensory, of course, and my role is around. I was brought in really to put Leonard Cheshire on the map regarding how we work, how we utilize technology, bringing the latest and greatest to people so they could genuinely take advantage of some of the revolution that's going on, trigger more revolution, if that was possible, but also make that sustainable, make it genuinely accessible financially and from a support perspective and everything else, and that's what I've spent my time doing. I also have responsibility for supporting employees and links with other strategic partners and government and so on.

Neil Milliken: 2:04

Brilliant, and Lenin Chase is well known in the UK, but you've been talking to Deborah for a long time. You've been doing stuff with BillionStroll as well, so I'm sure Deborah wants to jump in at this point.

Debra Ruh: 2:16

Well, and thank you for that, neil. I'll pay you later, but I am very proud to say that, hopefully, he feels the same way that Steve Tyler and I have been friends for many years and I consider him a really dear friend and I also love the work that he's done, and I think a lot of people in our community don't know what Steve has really done for us, and so I know that Steve was the one that told me that it was the 200th year of Braille, for example, which I did not know that, and then he proceeded to tell me a whole bunch more about Braille that I didn't know. So, steve, I know the first time that I noticed your work was when we in the United States were suing a lot of our technology companies because they weren't accessible to us and we did not think they were listening at all. And all of a sudden I looked and it seemed like a lot of our largest technology companies were working with you over at the RNIB Royal National Institute for the Blind and what I realized was because y'all were collaborating with them, y'all weren't just suing them. Now there's a place to sue them, but I just remember at the time being very surprised at how the market really shifted because of you to the United Kingdom for the work we were doing here in the United States.

Debra Ruh: 3:31

So you've done so much. You've done so much with Daisy and books and I was just wondering if you could take a little time to talk about what you have actually, just a little bit about your career. I know you recently had to update your resume cv and you were like, wow, that's hard to do, so you have some. You know you have a lot to talk about. So do you mind just telling the audience about some of the things that you've done to support the community?

Steve Tyler: 3:58

sure, I guess. Uh, I, my plan originally was to move into clinical psychology. That was the idea which gives you an I hint, I suppose. My interest, which is we all have it, I suppose I took out a very specific interest in people and how we communicate, how we work, how those of us that are different work, and then I realized that just at the time when I was graduating, a whole load of things were happening both personally and technically.

Steve Tyler: 4:38

On a personal level, I discovered very rapidly that it costs a great deal to get into postgraduate clinical psychology, which is what you needed to do. You also needed to gain experience and it was really tricky, as it it still is. Unless you've got money, get in. And I started looking for work, hoping, thinking that I'd get back to clinical um, when the time was right. And at the time two things were happening. One was AI. This thing called AI, right back in 1989, 1990, was a discussion, and at my university they merged parts of the psychology and humanities area with the computer area. I guess technical geeks could understand what psychologists understood about the brain and see whether or not they could make that work technically and vice versa.

Steve Tyler: 5:36

The second thing that was happening was very early at the web, nothing like we know it today but, the very first time sitting in a computer lab and logging on to a university in Wisconsin, and it took all of something like two and a half minutes for lots of tuntering weird stuff to be going on. And then eventually, there you were and we got there. We didn't quite know what to do at that stage. Very quickly I realized that if the promise that the internet offered if 10% of it was delivered, this was going to be a revolution and I wanted to be part of it. My career took a strange turn because there was a project which was all about assistive technology. It was a nine-month piece of work around. You know whether or not technology pricing and costs to government were justified. They wanted to know the answer to that or whether they were being ripped off, and the rest is history.

Steve Tyler: 6:42

I became interested in how specialist technologies could operate in an ecosystem, how they would communicate with mainstream technology, and very quickly. I suppose my specialism or my knowledge area became how do you genuinely sell the message of accessibility into mainstream business, such that by creating accessible products, everyday products, software, it doesn't matter. What do you need to do to get past what was then an area known mostly in most corporates as corporate social responsibility. You know, what I was trying to do was get right back to business decision making entity. Who's our most well known? Or the thing that I I've always been interested in strategy in that how you develop the story and make it hang together such that whoever you're talking to genuinely understand and embraces what you're talking about and and buys the t-shirt. But you also make it easy from where they are or whatever their understanding is around accessibility and people who, um, are different in inverted commas to their mainstream customer, whatever they consider their mainstream customer to be. So we all know the story. You know vast numbers of people with disabilities. In the uk we talk about 14.4 million people with disabilities, somewhere near 20 of the population. Talk about big numbers like 250 billion purple pounds. We say, well, frankly, corporates can't translate that. Their experience a lot of the time is, yeah, it's all too complicated, all very interesting, but we don't know how to get hold of it.

Steve Tyler: 8:34

So I wanted to break that circle and prove that, a people could be real customers. B there was real money. C you could genuinely make sustainable propositions and I led teams that delivered everything. From the voice that eventually became Alexa, I suppose is a very well-known one. There was a strategy behind it. The strategy was create the synthetic speech, which that was the big critical barrier at the time. How do you make synthetic speech that was good enough. That would break the existing situation, where synthetic speech at the time wasn't great and in order to get into Amazon we needed it to be good, good enough that everyone would embrace it. And the longer-term strategy was we didn't know it would be Alexa then, but if we could make that a mainstream proposal, that would be phenomenal.

Steve Tyler: 9:32

And at the time we delivered it for Kindle because it meant that we could access published material and the rest of it. It caused, by the way, many, many issues which are back with us today. At the time, you know, publishers were very fearful that all of the synthetic speech that was halfway decent could now sound reasonably human or human enough, and they want to levy a performance license on synthetic speech, red books and that that that's come back to bite us. I also led people, led teams who delivered the you know accessible digital tv kind of where, at the time, you know, people were switching over from analog tv to digital. Very, very, very different, multiple options, electronic program guides, menuing systems, so computer-style concepts were beginning to encroach on everyday entertainment systems and we wanted to make those accessible, which we did. Pharmaceutical packaging there was another one right across Europe, so this was enabling people who read Braille to understand what the hell it was they were holding in their hand, taking the right drugs at the right time.

Debra Ruh: 10:55

Steve on that particular one. I don't know. I think I'm correct, but Europe is the only one that does that. I believe that makes their pharmaceutical packaging accessible to people that are blind by using Braille. Users could use.

Steve Tyler: 11:30

But one way or another, a translation happened which meant it was Braille, and I didn't want to renegotiate for the next two years around whether it should be Braille or universal access. So I went with it and we made it happen.

Debra Ruh: 11:43

Yeah, that one, I think, was very impressive. We can learn a lot from it too I'm interested in that.

Neil Milliken: 11:49

The medication packaging is really important because drugs can make you better but they can also kill you and a lot of the generic medication packaging looks the same. That is fairly bland and the lettering's all tiny. And if you've got, if you're older and your eyesight is going, or so forget about Braille for a moment. But just the aging population or people in a hurry or people you know who've got a raging headache and migraine and don't take time to look, you can take the wrong stuff. So the design of packaging around medication is really important and I know that on a visual design front, helen hamlin center at royal college of art did a lot of work on making that consistent as well and visible and making it sort of standardized and genetic, because actually a lot of the medicines that we consume now are generics, so they're not the big, they're not manufactured by the big brand names.

Neil Milliken: 12:51

This is particularly the case in in the uk and europe, where we have publicly funded health care, where the government are buying the medications or subsidizing the medication, so they want to buy in bulk cheaply, right, um? And? And so they buy generics when stuff is out of license and these smaller companies what was happening is it's the daughter of the md or the wife of the md or the md son that is designing the packaging? Because they're you know, they're a small manufacturing company manufacturing one or two particular drugs, and so there was no consistency. You'd have writing going one way on one side and on another, and so it seems like a small thing, but actually it can make the difference between life and death or someone being really sick because they've taken the wrong dosage. I mean credit to you, steve, for the work on the medication packaging and credit to you for also being universal. I also know how complex the work was on the menu systems, on electronic program guides and so on. That work surely is I'm going to use an English expression like painting the fourth bridge.

Steve Tyler: 14:12

I talked about strategy before and you know, one of the ways that um I, you know, I operate, I guess, is to understand how the how, the business that you're, how the um, how the industry that you're trying to engage with, actually works. If you don't know how they make decisions and you don't know who the players are and why they make the decisions they make, then you're not easily going to impact anything. Um. And and very quickly we discovered that middleware companies inside the industry are critical. They are the guys who host technical libraries so-called technical libraries. They're literally a library of kit material, software, and manufacturer X will say right, I'm going to deliver a TV, this is the price point I want, these are the capabilities you want to do, this is what we want to make. And there's a wrangle, there's a negotiation and inevitably, you know, the middleware companies say no, you can't have A, b and C, you can't have a, b and c. You can have a, b and e if you like, but if you want c as well, you're going to have to pay extra anyway. Eventually they come to an agreement and we realized that building our capabilities into that middleware area was critical.

Steve Tyler: 15:38

In addition, I mean, I used all sorts of techniques, some of them close to bribery and corruption and some of them a bit different. I wanted to understand strategy and I wanted to understand how they made strategic decisions, and so I got hold of somebody in samsung who was a strategist, and it was incredible. You know some of the stuff I learned about how to actually influence it with some very straightforward things like deliver a white paper, do some flattery, etc. But a very large company who should be nameless, didn't want to do accessibility at all. They made it very clear that they didn't want to do it and inadvertently delivered Android-based TVs or at least they used the Android platform and, buried deep in the ecosystem inside their TV that they hadn't realised were accessibility settings. So, of course, what they received was a letter saying well done, company X x. We knew you'd come around again. It's fantastic the work that you've been doing and you know, actually you're leading the way. You've got some of the best. Just a few more tweaks and we'll be now. At that point.

Steve Tyler: 16:55

I was impossible for them to back out of the discussion. They'd have to overtly say then I know well, this was a mistake. We had no idea what we've been doing. So there were lots of kind of techniques like that and some of it you know. I mean I've used things, tried and tested things that worked in the past.

Steve Tyler: 17:15

I mean, at the very beginning of my career I recognized that mobile telecoms are going to be critical one way or the other. There were big numbers being taught then in the days of nokia and ericsson and companies like that. Um and just you know, nobody wanted to do it, nobody wanted to engage. They certainly didn't want us to screw around with their ecosystems and to mess around with their software and potentially cause failure. And it's still online.

Steve Tyler: 17:46

Actually, if you do a search for it, there is an article that was published in a newspaper which essentially was me saying what a disgraceful industry. Frankly, what are you doing? You're missing out and you're not holding up your side of the phone. I guess I thought you were all about communication, but apparently for a big chunk of the population, communication is not going to happen. So we're putting up. You know there's a call to action Technology engineers, ex-software people from Nokia and Exxon, come and talk to me. We've got millions of pounds available to make.

Steve Tyler: 18:23

Now, the millions of pounds was absolute nonsense. There were no millions of pounds. I mean, we were a voluntary sector organization and I thought actually I was going to be sacked for that. It was very early in my management career and I genuinely believed that I'd overstepped the mark, because I got this call from my boss saying let's explain a few things to the finance director because they're a bit concerned about this. Millions, right, is there anything else you're going to say? I mean I'm like no, no, no, carry on. So I had a very, very supportive boss. It was a brilliant partnership. I was, at the time, stephen King. It was a brilliant partnership by, also at the time, stephen King. You had Steve Tyler and Stephen King and a range of other people who shared the names of playwrights.

Antonio Santos: 19:11

Go on anyway. Steve, you were saying, oh, this company didn't want to do accessibility and no.

Steve Tyler: 19:26

So today, when you talk with companies, with people, do you still have people telling you that or it's easy to engage? That's a very good question. I think conversation has changed, so in some ways for the better and in some ways very, very definitely for worse. At the time in, I would say, around 2000 to 2005, that kind of thing, corporate social responsibility was the big deal, and I discovered very rapidly that a lot of people that I knew after they left the corporate social responsibility area would say things that I'd already learned. But it was good to have concern, so. So they would say things like you know, the CSR places are the wrong places to talk to if you want real decision making, because part of our job is to protect the organization.

Steve Tyler: 20:14

And, bluntly, the message I'd begun to recognize and understood was a lot of corporates were and not just corporates, actually many, many other organizations, including some in the voluntary sector and many other places were. Their view was csr people. Here's a budget, don't come back and ask for more because there is no more. See you next year. Keep these guys out of our hair. Don't make any ridiculous promises. Act as a warning mechanism. If there's trouble on the horizon, let us know about it, but keep everybody sweet.

Steve Tyler: 20:50

This is the friendly face of the corporate that's the truth of it and I wanted to bypass that nonsense, and today that that has definitely shifted. There are some organizations that excel in accessibility. I would say that we've got a really, really big problem, though, on our hands, and the best way I can exemplify it is to look at the data. Data tells you everything you need to know. We've done our own experimentation on this and our own research, but also there have been government reports. The very last one I read, which made me never want to read any government report ever again, was delivered middle of last year, which basically starts with the immortal words, mortal words.

Steve Tyler: 21:38

In the disability community, educational attainment and employment prospects have not changed significantly for six decades now in any other walk of life. It seems to me that would tell you that maybe you ought to rethink the strategies that you're doing. Voluntary sector organizations, take note. So-called representative organizations that represent the needs, wants, requirements of people with disabilities. Take note, because we and I count myself in this are not doing the job required or the rules of the game have changed. Either way, the rhetoric isn't working. We did some, you know, roughly speaking, 24 percent of employers. If you ask the question, here you are, you're in a short listening situation you've got five interviewees, one of whom has a disability, but that person with the disability has the same or exceeds the requirements of the role. Will you recruit? 24% of managers said no, under no circumstances. Would we recruit? A further 25% said it's not that I'm saying.

Steve Tyler: 22:54

I wouldn't recruit, but the reality is I might not have time to educate myself about the problem I'm buying. So, roughly speaking, 50% think disability is a bit of a problem and those are the guys that were happy to talk to us about it. By the way, we did some experiments too, sending applications to universities. Sending applications to universities One set were from students who had a disability, one set were not 100% return rate on the non-disabled students students just under 24% interestingly very close reflection of industry just under 24% essentially didn't respond at all to the person with the disability. There were responses to people with disabilities that fell into the category of we'll talk to you and, frankly, you're going to have to convince us.

Steve Tyler: 24:00

And that's the trouble we have today. And I think, the one tiny thing and I, I, I hold myself partly responsible for this I think we've unfortunately created specialism and special people to handle special people and special knowledge to handle special. These special knowledges, by the way, are an absolute requirement. You need to know what you're talking about if you want to make accessibility happen. The downside of it is we are creating distance between you know the needs of the disability community and it already was viewed as a complicated area. I think we're making it irreparable.

Neil Milliken: 24:46

I agree. As a specialist trying to make it part of business as usual, I fully agree that it needs to break out. I know Deborah had a comment.

Debra Ruh: 24:57

Antonio had a comment first.

Antonio Santos: 24:59

Okay. So, steve, do you feel that somehow, besides all progress that has been made and it is important to recognize that some progress has been made sometimes we are people who are still talking within ourselves, within the community, within the kind of a bubble, and we don't go out there and be part of the broader community, broader technology?

Steve Tyler: 25:25

community. I agree. I think one of the biggest failures is exactly as you've described, that the message not only is the messaging not penetrating because we're using the wrong terminology not penetrating because we're using the wrong terminology, we're not. We're somehow failing to engage and failing to change culture appropriately. We're not in the right places, but secondly, there isn't enough cohesion within the disability community.

Steve Tyler: 25:53

I've been around long enough. I'll give you a working example very home territory, so I think I know a bit about what I'm talking about. I've been in this industry for a long time. I've engaged with lots of people over a long time. My bet is if you ask any blind person anywhere around the world, give me your top three requirements that currently are not being served. Or what would you most like in your life currently? You know, uh, currently not there. Navigation or wayfinding or independent finding your way around is going to be somewhere at the top and technically that is a perfectly achievable proposition. There are many, many examples of attempts at making this work. There is no cohesion, there is no cohesive strategy, there is no joined up process to put this problem to bed once and for all, and you can multiply that out hundreds and thousands of times.

Steve Tyler: 26:56

I saw it by the by the way, in the Braille industry. You know, here we are, 200 years in, we have Braille and we have Braille technology and whatever, and one of the most long-standing pieces of technology is a system driven by piezoelectronic, so-called piezoelectronic switches. So these are very, very robust, fantastic pieces of kit that create Braille electronically. So a little pin or group of pins pops up or gets pulled down as you need them in order to create the patterns that Braille you know, to create the patterns that Braille you know, to create the patterns that Braille dots need. They're very robust, which is why since 1976 or so they have been the choice. There's been nothing to beat them at all.

Steve Tyler: 27:52

So, 50 years on, imagine my surprise when I asked the very obvious question I wonder if you know we've got better propositions around. I wonder whether you know we could do things cheaper. I mean, one of the biggest challenges around braille display technology traditionally is it's very, very expensive. I've got one here. It's a little braille device traditionally is it's very, very expensive. I've got one here. It's a little braille device, got 20 cells in it, 20 characters of braille and these characters of braille. So imagine what that's like. Imagine that's like a blank page put across your computer screen or across the printed page, with a little slot in it that has 20 characters visible to you. So what you do to read is move the slot to the next 20 and the next 20 and the next 20 and then the next line. That's how you read, and so you need smart technology to help you navigate your way around it. Now that kind of stuff costs about 4,000 pounds. 4,000, sorry, $4,000.

Steve Tyler: 29:02

The obvious question is can we make that cheaper? Imagine my surprise then. Even I mean, I was genuinely shocked. We did our research, we tried to find out what the hell was going on. A lot of people have put a lot of money into this. There were 58 projects around the world at vast expense who weren't talking to each other at all, and you could say, ah, but competition is a good thing and it can be a good thing, but in a sector that claims it's got no money and doesn't do its job well enough anyway, 58 times x thousands of dollars is ridiculous. And we brought all of that together, shortlisted a range of them through engineering and a range of other technical and technical work, and then eventually shortlisted three, and I mean now I'm happy to say a. The price has dropped dramatically and you can get stuff at the cost what's?

Neil Milliken: 30:00

the case. So, steve, I have spent quite a lot of time looking after BrailleKit and the old Braille displays and picking yogurt out of the piezoelectric switches and pins and so on, and they are tremendously expensive. As you said, if you want to read more, you need a bigger braille display and you the price goes up even higher. You know these are. These are really expensive bits of kit and to democratize braille you have to find a cheaper way. But I'm really interested because the point you made about braille is writ large across the sort of the disability sector and the assistive technology sector. People don't do research, they don't do market research. I am constantly being approached by people saying I've got this brilliant idea and I'm going to do this and I'm investing my life savings. I love you, I love the fact that you care.

Neil Milliken: 30:58

Please go and do some market research before you remortgage your house, because there's 25 other solutions that are doing the same thing and all of them are struggling. Please come together. Can I connect you and I? I frequently actually take calls with these people and point them to other people to see if I can get them to to work together, because I work in a, a corporate, so I'm not I'm not one of the sort of the charities or in the sector in the same way. So you know I don't have the authority to be the convening space or or anything, but I do spend a lot of time trying to connect people up to to stop this duplication, because it's so wasteful and what we end up doing is everybody loses out because no one reaches that kind of critical mass to be able to make stuff cheaply enough or reach a big enough audience and and I think what you're saying is, I think what you're saying is is is absolutely right, I, I, which is partly why myself and deborah and others are exactly focused on this convening process.

Steve Tyler: 32:09

We want to set up the convening mechanism, break this circle, amongst many other things we're trying to do. But to that, to your broader point though, I think unfortunately voluntary sectors and charitable organizations have drunk the kool-aid that they were fed by the corporate industry. So if you, if you're in a corporation, if you're in a profit-making shareholder driven entity, it absolutely makes sense that you do the things that they do, ie push stuff out, see if it flies. You know market research etc. Very expensive these days and actually you can learn a lot by just shoving stuff out there, especially if it's software. But whether it's software or not, the other thing is, in the end the measurable success is saving, efficiency, cost effectiveness, all of those things. And at the beginning, I think over my lifetime in my career, I've watched the voluntary sector adopt those approaches to the point where actually we've become rather wedded to the money. So at the beginning it was a great idea, kind of. Of course, as a voluntary sector organization or as a charity, we want to make our money go as far as it can go. Of course it makes sense that you employ people from the commercial world who know a thing or two about making money go further. Add deficiency and all the rest of it. What a great idea. But gradually the financial draw was too big.

Steve Tyler: 33:45

If you look at a lot of organizations today in the voluntary sector that represent the needs of people with disabilities, you will find they are virtually. It's very difficult to tell but they're not a commercial operation from the way they behave. They will talk about brand, they will talk about income generation. They will talk about week, they will talk about customer engagement and fundraising. In that case, somewhere tucked in there at the end might be service, it might be research, but a lot of be service. It might be research, but a lot of the time it's not even that, and I think that is very concerning. That isn't why Joe Public puts his hand in his pocket. He thinks he puts his hand in his pocket to donate to charities because they do good stuff for people less fortunate than himself or for people like his mum. Good stuff for people less fortunate than himself or for people like his mum, but, as it turns out a lot of the time. They're doing much more commercial stuff. And quote efficiency. Quote is the name of the game.

Steve Tyler: 34:48

Going back to braille, I don't know how many times I've had the conversation that starts 200 years on. Do we really need to continue with this braille stuff? I mean, it's very expensive, isn't it? Forget what the research says. Forget the fact that the research says people in employment who are totally blind and braille readers actually have half a chance of holding down a job. Using braille or the educational provision to children that use Braille means that they can understand tactile maps and other more complex material. Forget all that, because you know there's money to worry about. And of course there's money to worry about, but the translation very rapidly becomes really. We could probably spend our money somewhere else.

Neil Milliken: 35:36

Yeah, I mean, I think you make some extremely valid points there. There is a problem with the third sector, where the self perpetuation industry that it's become takes up a larger and larger proportion of the money that goes in in order to support that raising of funds and the people behind it. And so you have these big organizations and, as you say, they do do good work, but the proportion of the, the share of the money that goes to the good work, as opposed to the, the continuation of the organization is, is, is an issue it, I think it's, it's, you know, considerably disproportionate, and we've seen some scandals in in recent years, particularly with us-based charities where maybe you know, 60, 70 percent of the, the take goes to the, the infrastructure of the organization, and not to like delivering to their community. We've run out of time. It's very easy to do when talking with you, steve, um, because there's so much to talk about, but I would really like to have you on again.

Neil Milliken: 36:48

I look forward to us having a discussion on social media and I also need to thank amazon and my clear text for keeping us online and keeping us captioned and accessible. So, thank you, steve, look forward, um, to continue the conversation. Thank you very much, guys. Thank you steve.