From Compliance to Advantage: The Hidden ROI of Accessibility

What happens when accessibility transcends from a legal obligation to a strategic business advantage? That's exactly what Gina Bhawalkar, Principal Analyst for Digital Accessibility at Forrester Research, illuminates in our fascinating conversation about the evolving digital accessibility landscape.

Gina brings two decades of experience to the table, having started her journey testing products with people with disabilities before moving into leadership roles where she championed accessibility within major organizations. Now at Forrester, she researches how companies effectively scale accessibility practices and evaluates the leading accessibility platforms through the influential Forrester Wave methodology.

Our discussion reveals a critical disconnect that exists in many organizations today - while 60% claim executive commitment to accessibility, fewer than half implement proven best practices like including people with disabilities in research or making accessibility a formal project requirement. This gap between intention and action represents both a challenge and an opportunity.

The conversation takes a particularly illuminating turn when Gina outlines the four categories of business benefits beyond compliance: increasing revenue, reducing costs, enhancing organizational resilience, and building trust. From competitive advantages in procurement to designing for changing demographics, these multidimensional benefits offer a compelling case for accessibility that goes far beyond legal requirements.

We also explore how different regions approach accessibility - from the compliance-driven motivation in the US to the European focus on privacy connections and Australia's integration with customer experience initiatives. The growing influence of the European Accessibility Act is creating a global ripple effect that will impact procurement decisions worldwide.

For anyone leading digital initiatives or interested in creating better products for everyone, this episode offers invaluable insights into how accessibility can become a catalyst for innovation rather than just another compliance checkbox. Listen now to discover how the "curb cut effect" means that designing for accessibility ultimately creates better experiences for all users.

Chapters

• 0:00 Introduction to Gina Barwalker
• 1:07 Gina's Journey into Accessibility
• 5:26 Analyst Houses vs Consultancies
• 9:00 European Accessibility Act's Impact
• 13:42 Executive Confidence in Accessibility
• 18:28 Accessibility Teams and Enablement Model
• 22:04 Business Benefits Beyond Compliance
• 26:21 Forrester Wave for Digital Accessibility
• 30:06 Global Trends and Maturity Benchmarks

Transcript

Neil Milliken: 0:00

Hello and welcome to Access Chat. I'm very excited about today's episode because we're welcoming Gina Bhawalkar, who is the Principal Analyst for Digital Accessibility at Forrester, and, for those of you that know the tech business, Forrester is one of the influential analyst houses that produce strategic reports on technology and trends that are often read by CEOs and the people that manage companies as part of their decision-making processes is on how they're going to deploy technologies and do their business. So it's really important for accessibility to be part of the sort of analyst and research infrastructure that businesses can see, so we're delighted that Gina is able to join us today. Gina, thank you for coming. Can you tell us a little bit about your journey into accessibility and your work with Forrester, and then we'll talk a bit more about the industry trends that you're noticing?

Gina Bhawalkar: 1:00

Absolutely Well. First of all, thank you for having me. It's a pleasure to be here. I'm a listener, so it's really cool to get to actually be on the podcast.

Gina Bhawalkar: 1:07

My journey into accessibility actually started about 20 years ago. So I got my master's in human computer interaction at Georgia Tech and when I was there I needed a job to basically fund my education. And I happened to get a job in a human factors lab at Georgia Tech Research Institute, which is the applied research area of the university. And you know I was told you are going to lead our accessibility testing program, and I didn't know what accessibility testing was at the time, but I was really excited to learn, and so my job there was to test everything from printers to like consumer packaging to websites with people with disabilities. So that's how I got exposed to really just the sheer number of problems that exist out there as it relates to product accessibility. So from there I went into user experience as a profession. I worked as a UX designer, ux researcher, I led UX teams at several organizations, but I always had that eye for accessibility and kind of made it my mission, if you will, to make sure the organizations I worked at were thinking about that as part of how they design and develop products.

Gina Bhawalkar: 2:15

And then seven years ago, I heard about this opportunity at Forrester. I actually wasn't hired to cover accessibility for Forrester. I was hired to cover experience design, and that's what I did for my first year or so there. I wrote a lot about how companies build and scale design practices, which is a really important topic as well but my passion was in digital accessibility, and so I noticed at the time that no one at Forrester, and really no analyst firms, were writing at all about this space. So actually my very first Forrester report I pitched to my boss.

Gina Bhawalkar: 2:46

Let me just put a short piece out there about the business case for accessibility. I know a lot about it, I can write it really quickly. So we published this report called the Billion Customer Opportunity Digital Accessibility. That was my first piece of research and it generated quite a bit of client interest, and so over time this went from being a side project of mine to being now essentially my full coverage area at Forrester. So my job is basically to do research. I interview executives at a lot of companies to understand what's working, what's not, how are they effectively scaling accessibility practices in their organizations, and then, you know, I analyze that research, I publish what essentially thought leadership papers about various topics related to the space, and then I also spend a lot of time talking to the big vendors in the digital accessibility space research to understand which products out there are best as it relates to meeting different companies' use cases, things like monitoring for accessibility, compliance, embedding accessibility in development, and so on and so forth. So that's a little bit about my journey and my job.

Neil Milliken: 3:58

So there's some parallels with some of my early years playing around with hardware, and I think that one of the joys of accessibility is that you get to play around with lots of toys with the excuse that they have potential to be helpful. Right, so you can always stay. It's a role in which is great for people that are curious, which is well suited to the ADHD as amongst us, so we can flip from one thing to the next. But you mentioned that you're you're looking at vendors and so on. I think what's it? What's also interesting is that there's a difference, I think, in terms of what's happening in the, the sort of analyst and research space which has recognized accessibility, because we know that some of the other analyst houses also are publishing research on accessibility.

Neil Milliken: 4:46

Not too many, you know but we're seeing some of that research being published and then the sort of lack of understanding of that from many of the big consultancies. So you purchase advice, you know and understand who are the leaders in a space from the analyst houses, but when the consultants come into organizations and are looking at determining what value is within an organization, I don't think the maturity is there in a lot of the consultancies. Is this something where you think that? Am I right? Is this something where research and analyst houses are ahead of the big consultancy shops the McKinsey's and others of this world, and the Bain's and so on? Because I think that from my own experience they quite often are still thinking of this as a cost and a lot of the consultancies are looking at reducing costs, whereas I think that the pieces I've seen from yourself and others are talking about the benefits.

Gina Bhawalkar: 5:48

Yeah, I would say it's evolving, right. So, for example, if I look at the last year and the types of organizations that I'm getting inquiries from, I am hearing a lot more from design agencies, marketing agencies, some of these services firms where they weren't thinking about accessibility at all. But all of a sudden, the businesses that are buying their services are starting to ask about accessibility in RFPs, part of that driven by the European Accessibility Act, right. So they're asking questions about oh okay, what can we learn from Forrester? About how to embed this into our business and our working models, because our customers are starting to expect this more.

Gina Bhawalkar: 6:29

I've come across several design, customer experience, it services firms that get it. They have dedicated staff for accessibility, they've built internal programs, they have a services portfolio, but they're also drinking their own Kool-Aid and making sure that their products are accessible. But I would say those are few and far between. There's, to your point, neil, still a lot of companies that need to sort of wake up to the fact that this is a business opportunity. I would argue for them, the biggest benefit being winning contracts. Do you want to win contracts with the tsunami of companies that are going to start making quick?

Debra Ruh: 7:05

want to say that one of the first brands that I ever saw do that was IBM, and I remember back in 2002, and people were just shocked that they did that. Kudos, kudos to those brands. Thank you for letting me comment there. Go ahead.

Gina Bhawalkar: 7:38

Yeah, of course, and it's been really interesting. I've been talking to a lot of organizations, also been talking at events, doing podcasts like this, about the European Existibility Act, because that's a big topic right now and I think people are very focused on like, well, am I covered? Are the products I work on covered? And I'm talking to a lot of B2B organizations, like companies that sell workforce software, hr software, payment software, things like that. And the thing I keep hammering home with them is there is going to be a spillover effect here, right, like the act may not speak to you directly, but as companies start to make accessibility a priority, as they start to mandate it within their organizations, it's going to spill over into procurement. So companies that you're working with today, companies you hope to work with in the future, it's to your benefit to make sure that your software is accessible. It's going to give you a competitive advantage.

Gina Bhawalkar: 8:32

And it's been really interesting because at Forrester we do these Forrester wave evaluations. We do over 100 of them a year on different software markets and I've, over the last seven years, been encouraging many of my analyst peers to include accessibility as a criterion when they do Forrester Waves, and so we have at least a couple dozen at this point that have it. And what we've learned through that process is, with the exception of a couple markets, most software markets are very weak when it comes to accessibility, so the differentiation opportunity is huge and I really want B2B software companies to understand that, and I don't think they're quite getting that yet. So it's been interesting.

Antonio Santos: 9:15

I still have a document, a blog that I started to prepare almost a year ago. Focused on CEOs and executives talking about accessibility, and the topic was about the lack of confidence of executives talking about accessibility.

Antonio Santos: 9:30

And not very few are confident in naturally talking about it and I think that also tells a story behind it. So I was curious to know from you how do you feel is the level of confidence of executives from companies in actually talking about accessibility? Now, we know that accessibility has impact in different areas at the enterprise from the workplace, from procurement but how confident are people in really saying it and talking about it in public?

Gina Bhawalkar: 9:57

I would say the problem here is that most executives, even though they may say, yeah, we're requiring accessibility, like I understand the business case, they don't really understand the full business case. They tend to be thinking of it in a very narrow way. Perhaps their legal and compliance team has helped them understand. Look, you know, we need to be concerned because of Title II of the ADA or the European Accessibility Act, or law from India that's now being enforced more than it was before, you know, whatever it is in the regions they operate in. And so that's their understanding of accessibility is it's a compliance thing, it's kind of like privacy. Right, it's something we have to do, and they should think about it. That's one aspect. Right, they should think about it that way.

Gina Bhawalkar: 10:40

But I think the problem is that the people in the organization who do understand accessibility haven't helped their executives understand. Like, yes, but why does all this actually matter? Right, I would say, your typical executive probably has no idea how someone who is blind uses their products. Right, they don't understand assistive technologies. They don't understand that this requires us to do a lot of things differently. It's not just a check the box exercise. And so my advice I always give the person in the organization who is championing this work, and that might be a head of design, it might be someone in marketing, it might be an enterprise architect. I mean, whoever it is is you have to help your executives understand why this matters for your business right now and don't make it all about compliance.

Gina Bhawalkar: 11:28

Tell a multifaceted ROI story and hey, by the way, executives are people too, right? So help them understand that you're actually shutting people out, and no one wants to shut people out, right? Bring to life the barriers, the impact that it actually has when our products aren't accessible. Make that part of that conversation. And so a lot of my research, really for the last seven years, has focused on you know, how do you tell, how do you make the business case, how do you tell the story in an effective way to leaders and then also to employees. And, by the way, it's a little bit different, right, with executives. Yes, you have to talk about ROI With employees. You just have to lay a foundation for this work to take hold by helping them understand. Look, developers, your code's broken. People can't use the product because of it. No developer wants to hear that their code is broken. That's not going to excite a developer, just revealing those sorts of things can be huge in terms of.

Antonio Santos: 12:28

I think so. So that's one side, the executive side. We have many people that we have interviewed on this podcast, working on accessibility. That day we realized that many of them feel isolated in their own organizations. They actually feel a little bit lonely in their work. For, from your feedback, when you talk with people, with experts, what is your take on this?

Gina Bhawalkar: 12:48

I think part of the challenge is, when I talk to these accessibility teams within organizations, is because there's still such a lack of awareness across the company. I think that's really what it boils down to, quite frankly, is there's this tendency to say, well, we're always going to go to the accessibility expert, right, it's not our job, it's the job of that accessibility team. And I've seen some companies get into trouble where they built these really big accessibility teams, but the result of that is the designers and developers. They don't think it's their job. They're like oh, we're just going to design and develop. The accessibility expert's going to come in and annotate the design or tell me everything that's wrong with it.

Gina Bhawalkar: 13:29

And so my advice to those teams is always, you know, focus on enablement, focus on enablement. I personally love the guide model that. I think Capital One may have been one of the first organizations to talk about it that way, but the notion of you need experts in your organization, but they're guides. There's enablers, they're not doing the work, and so you know, that's why I got really excited a couple of years ago when Forrester decided to invest because it's a big time investment in doing a Forrester wave on this space, Because I do think that part of that enablement is making sure that teams have the tools to embed accessibility into their work and that they have the training and foundational education to know why they should be using those tools, so they don't just sit on a shelf.

Debra Ruh: 14:14

Gina, this is a wonderful conversation, especially after sitting on the stage yesterday with some experts and the way they were addressing it. I think that part of the problem that we have is that we really have the really bad messaging. It's really bad messaging. Yesterday, you know, we were taught it feels like people are just trying to scare everybody into doing it and the reality is it's like okay, but we need to do it because you know, because it's the right thing, so not I'm getting ahead of myself. I want to give you, I want to ask you a specific question, so something that I really like, about what you talked about and what you're doing. And I am so glad that you're doing the wave, because the wave is something that technologists that are really making a difference, they're really designing, that's what they understand.

Debra Ruh: 15:02

And so I did not know y'all were doing all this. I've always known about Forrester and I've appreciated the really powerful reports that y'all put out there, Some of the first powerful reports. I see other groups and I'm not naming names that are putting out reports that I can tell you just took from their report and their report, their report, and then everybody's talking about it. It's like I get it, but the reality is you know okay that you just repeated information we didn't really need, and so I just find it so almost discouraging sometimes because it feels like we are not making any progress. And I'm listening to people talk on stage and it feels like they're just trying to scare the heck out of the audience. And we're in the United States, we're going to, and they make it so complicated and so impossible, impossible to comply with, and they just scare everybody so bad. And it's just it's encouraging to hear your part of the conversation because this is actually how we change society, Teach design and we yesterday somebody was saying never hire a designer that designs for themselves.

Debra Ruh: 16:04

And I'm thinking what are you talking about? That is not how jobs work. Designers come in and we tell you what we want, Anyway. So it's illogical some of the way we're presenting this data. It is and it's causing a huge issue. Look at this DEI cancel culture, crap. That's happening. Anyway, calming down a bit. So I just am very encouraged that y'all are doing all this really important work in the background, Because I also see companies that have really big accessibility teams.

Debra Ruh: 16:33

It's interesting how they're using these teams Some ways. It's just really not going to move us forward, and so I also see so many smaller brands that maybe they don't have access to something. You know, small brands always struggle but really struggling to figure this out, and so the work that you're doing, Gina, I just applaud so very much. I had no idea y'all had made that progress, and so I think that gives me so much hope, because if you were teaching the core people, the people that design our world, how to do this because I don't understand, gina, why, in some ways, we're making a big deal, because this isn't about people with disabilities, it's not.

Debra Ruh: 17:16

It's about human experience and it's about making sure shouldn't you design things, gina? That works every stage of a human being's life. We're so diverse as human beings. I am so confused about why we're still having the same accessibility. I am so confused about why we're still having the same accessibility A11Y conversations and why we're not having more conversations like this, because this is actually how society changes. So I want to thank you for that, and I was hoping you would just tell us a little bit more about what you are doing with the wave and these people that you're talking to teach them. That is a very, very accessible. And I love one more thing I love the point that you made about tying it to privacy and compliance, because one thing I used to always say, too, was it's like privacy and security, but you're right, that's compliance. So I thought that was a powerful note too, thank you.

Gina Bhawalkar: 18:28

Where they're actually doing the proven best practices, they're integrating accessibility into design. They realize this is a way to just create better, higher quality products. They're leaning into the more positive benefits. What I mean by that, so the way we talk about it at Forrester is there's four categories of business benefits and at least 17 within those four categories that we've identified, and I'm sure there are more.

Gina Bhawalkar: 18:51

This is a revenue opportunity, increasing revenue. It's an opportunity to reduce costs, which is where I would put a lot of the like don't get yourself in legal trouble and reduce customer complaints, and things like that. I would put that in that bucket. It's about increasing resilience. Hey, by the way, our population dynamics are changing quite a bit. We're gonna have a lot more individuals over the age of 65 in the coming years than we ever have before. Are you preparing your organization, are you designing your products with those population dynamics in mind? And then, lastly, it's about building trust.

Gina Bhawalkar: 19:23

Going to the DEI point, there still are organizations out there in the US, and also, of course, all around the world, who have this baked into their values and their mission. Right, they're still talking about inclusion, and that's great, but you're not really about inclusion if you're putting inaccessible products out in the world. So this is about showing that you really are what you say you're all about. And employees and consumers are pretty smart. They, you know, like what we see happening with Target right now. They can see, right, when you pedal back on your values, they will reflect that with their wallets.

Gina Bhawalkar: 19:56

And so I like when I see organizations lean into some of these benefits as well and, again, as I said earlier, tell kind of a multidimensional story around why accessibility matters for companies and then talking about things like the curb cut effect right. Ultimately, when we start with accessibility, we end up creating products that are simply better for everyone, and I've had a lot of leaders, actually, you know, when you frame it to them in that way, they can start to see that in their own lives. They're like oh yes, I do use captions when I'm traveling every week and I'm in a crowded bar at the airport. Oh, interesting, I never thought about it that way. These can be great examples to help them understand the wider impacts and market opportunity behind this work.

Neil Milliken: 20:39

I agree with all of that and I think that talking about disability-led innovation is a way to get people excited.

Neil Milliken: 20:47

Of course, we're, on this podcast, pretty mature and we understand the ideas of situational disability and all the different ways that you can cut it.

Neil Milliken: 20:56

That then mean that these assistive technologies work for a much wider cohort. Just thinking back to to the work that you're doing on on the wave and you said that it's now included in multiple waves that's I think that's really important, because you're part of the sort of ecosystem that is driving the demand into companies that the responsibility for accessibility becomes devolved right, because if you're measuring in one part of an organization, it can't just be, as you say, the responsibility of the accessibility team in a different part of the business. So if you're doing stuff in workplace, then there need to be people thinking about deployment of assistive technologies. And how do you have interoperability with the line of business applications, whereas people that are doing front-end design for commercial websites are different teams? Again, those are the individual waves, but what are the things that you're measuring in the accessibility specific wave? Is it certain technology sets? Is it competencies? Is it organizational maturity or is it a combination of all of those things?

Gina Bhawalkar: 22:01

Right. So the Forrester wave I'm doing, I will be evaluating digital accessibility platforms. So we're defining that essentially as technologies used by organizations to and I'm not going to, I don't have the definition memorized on the top of my head but to monitor and report on accessibility compliance and to embed accessibility testing into product design and development. And so the way that we approach the wave is we have, I think we'll have about 38 criteria I believe that's how many I had last time and we evaluate the biggest offerings in the space against those criteria. So offerings from organizations like DQ and Level Access and there will probably be about 10-ish vendors total that we look at. So it's a very time-intensive process. The vendors themselves participate heavily in the process. So they have an extensive questionnaire where they have to respond to all of the criteria we create and say here's how they're supporting that for their customers, and they do three-hour demonstrations of their product for me. And so you know it's a big-time investment for them, of which I'm very grateful. But then ultimately it's us, forrester, that are scoring these vendor offerings against those criteria, us, forrester, that are scoring these vendor offerings against those criteria. And coming out of that with the Forrester Wave graphic which essentially says these are the leaders in the market, these are the strong performers in the market and these are the contenders in the market.

Gina Bhawalkar: 23:24

Now we look for the best of the best right. So any vendor product that's included in a Forrester Wave is a good product for enterprise customers. But the power of the Wave is then a business right. I'm just going to use Target as an example for a moment. If you are Target, you could come to the Forrester Wave interface and say you know, we really need a product that's great for compliance monitoring right. We already have tooling for design and development. We're not concerned about that. We're looking for the best product to continuously scan and monitor our sites and it will help you understand of that vendor set which is going to be the best offering for you. So it's a pretty cool process and excited that we're doing it again this year. We published our first one two years ago, so this will be our second instance.

Neil Milliken: 24:11

So very quick follow up on that. So most of these are web facing, you know, for web developers and product developers, and I know you're talking to some of the European vendors, as well as the European vendors, us ones, which is great, because I think there is a slightly different focus in Europe, particularly when it comes to data privacy and where stuff is hosted, and even more so now, given some of the political events of recent months. Do you see the potential to start looking at some of the other areas and aspects of accessibility beyond web governance? Because actually there's a whole area of accessibility, corporate governance that sort of intersects with things like corporate social responsibility and some of these other things, where it goes beyond some of the technical stuff and becomes and this is definitely an evolving area because, you know, because of reporting requirements from EU like CSRD and so on, is this an area that you can see being influential in some way that you might investigate in future iterations of a wave?

Gina Bhawalkar: 25:20

Absolutely so. The way our wave is structured, we wouldn't approach that through our wave methodology, but 100%. I'm getting asked this a lot by our clients to do more around organizational maturity and where are different companies? And so I am very passionate about that topic, particularly now we're seeing this very interesting divide between, or disconnect between, commitment and action. So we see that globally, 60% of organizations are telling us, yes, we have an executive back commitment to accessibility and work is happening to deliver on that commitment. But then when we ask them, what are you actually doing to deliver on the commitment? Less than 50% of those companies are doing proven best practices, such as reviewing accessibility work during design, making accessibility a formal requirement on projects, including people with disabilities in design research. So that's not good, right, and I would say many of these committed organizations are not really committed because they're not doing these things.

Gina Bhawalkar: 26:33

And so I think, neil, to your point, that gets to okay. What are those important aspects of maturity? And there's obviously been great work from Business, disability Forum and other organizations to define what those are. And then where's the benchmark data right Like, help me understand within my industry where companies are. Maybe in certain industries we have to focus on some of those levers more than others. I think there is like a desire for that sort of data and insight and definitely something that we're thinking about in Forrester in terms of what value could we add to that conversation, thinking about you know what's already available out there in the market.

Debra Ruh: 27:10

Thank you, you know, gina, that's just a really good point because I know the community is always not happy with some of like the indexes and stuff equality type indexes and stuff that are out there and I know that, even though the community, we have not done a good job at all of coming together to convene and really have our voices heard in any effective way, sadly, but that's okay.

Debra Ruh: 27:35

There's work being done on that in the background as well. But I just think it's. You know, it's very interesting to just see how it's all unfolding, and it was interesting when Neil was saying well, I wonder if y'all do this in the future, I think that your clients can encourage y'all to do even more by supporting y'all doing more. So I think that's another way, because we see so many groups that say that. You know I often I talk to different audiences and stuff, sometimes about the B2B, you know, the business to business groups, and I remember sitting on boards. I've been on boards of these groups.

Debra Ruh: 28:15

For example, I was on the board of Disability Inn. It was USBLN at the time for six years and it's an interesting thing to do as a professional to sit on a board, because sometimes I remember at the time when I was sitting on the board, the ADA was being revised. Excuse me, I know we call it something different, but anyway I you know I was voting. In some ways I would vote towards things that were in the best interest of the corporation, but I also felt it was going to benefit the community of people with disability in the long run. But we were criticized and said no, no, no, you don't you only care about the corporations.

Debra Ruh: 28:51

So I find it there has. You know, I was glad you brought up business disability forum because they have such a good reputation, but it's just interesting understanding how these B2B organizations really do support the efforts and us moving forward. And I think that you know that's going to society, that's going to play out in society. We're going to all figure that out together. But I just think it's very encouraging to hear what you are doing at Forrester, because it allows it makes me feel that there is progress happening in the background that I wasn't aware of. That is so powerful. And also, gina, I know you're a global organization. You're just not focused on it from the US lens, and so I was hoping you would just speak to that just for a second and then I'll turn it back over to Neil, I believe, or yes, or Antonio, whoever.

Gina Bhawalkar: 29:42

Yeah, that's right. I mean, we have analysts like myself in Europe and AP know, just recently, for example, I was speaking with one of our analysts who focuses on the privacy space. You know, she's based in Europe, she's Italian, and she had some really interesting thoughts based on her coverage of, you know, this notion of kind of connecting accessibility and privacy and talking about them in a similar way. Yes, we have. We have analysts all over the. Yes, we have analysts all over the world. We have clients all over the world.

Gina Bhawalkar: 30:10

It used to be that most of my inquiry volume came from clients in the US, and that's because of the legal landscape here, and many organizations at least for a long time, and it's still the case are initiating this conversation because of a demand letter or lawsuit incident.

Gina Bhawalkar: 30:26

But now I'm talking a lot more with organizations in Europe because of the European accessibility effect. More organizations in North America who also sell in Europe and this is kind of their wake-up call, and then we have a lot of clients in India, for example. So I regularly have calls with clients there as well who are just trying to figure out how to infuse this into everything they do. It's a really cool part of my job, that I have that privilege of getting to work with organizations based in different areas of the world Australia too. We have a lot of clients we work with in Australia and in many respects they've been kind of forward thinking. We have a lot of customer experience clients there and I think they really are connecting accessibility and customer experience, which is what I hope all organizations will do. So I learned something different from clients you know in various regions, but yeah, it's definitely a global effort.

Debra Ruh: 31:17

I'm seeing that in Australia too. I really see innovation in Australia. I'm fascinated with what's happening in Australia. Anyway, back over to you, Neil.

Neil Milliken: 31:26

Thank you, duran, and we've hit the buffers on time. Unfortunately, we could actually go on. Clearly, there's a lot of stuff that we could cover. We'd love to have you back, but I need to thank Amazon and MyClearText for keeping us on air and captioned and accessible. So, gina, I look forward to us continuing the conversation and for that conversation to continue on social media on Blue Square. Thank you very much for joining us today.

Gina Bhawalkar: 31:49

Thank you for having me.