Can Business Schools Bridge the Corporate Inclusion Gap?

What does it take to lead effectively in today's diverse business landscape? Gisele Marcus, Vice Dean at Olin Business School at Washington University in St. Louis, brings a refreshing perspective shaped by her extensive Fortune 500 experience at companies like Accenture and Johnson Controls.

The leadership skills needed today extend far beyond traditional business acumen. As Marcus explains, "Wherever I plant my feet, I want to be comfortable there and I want my colleagues to be comfortable there as well." This philosophy has guided her development of the "Leading Across Differences" course, which gives business students a competitive advantage as they enter workplaces that increasingly value inclusive leadership skills.

Drawing from research on belonging and performance, Marcus makes a compelling case that effective leadership requires understanding how to work with people from different backgrounds, experiences, and perspectives. "The common denominator is going to be people," she notes, explaining that when employees feel valued and included, "they will knock it out of the park for you as an organization."

The conversation takes an especially fascinating turn when discussing how younger generations are transforming workplace expectations. Unlike previous generations who primarily considered industry and income when choosing jobs, today's emerging workforce—particularly Millennials and Gen Z—demands environments where their unique contributions are recognized. They're "voting with their feet" against cultures that don't prioritize inclusion.

Perhaps most valuable is Marcus's insight into navigating the current political climate around DEI initiatives. She shares practical approaches for maintaining inclusive environments while being responsive to changing contexts. Her global perspective—teaching students from 29 different countries—reminds us that effective leadership must be culturally fluent, adapting approaches for different cultural contexts rather than applying one-size-fits-all solutions.

Connect with Gisele on LinkedIn or visit giselemarcus.com to learn more about her work on cultural fluency and inclusive leadership.

Chapters

• 0:00 Introduction to Giselle Marcus
• 8:14 From Corporate to Academia
• 16:22 The Value of DEI in Business Education
• 21:49 Leadership Through Changing Political Tides
• 26:58 Teaching Cultural Fluency to Future Leaders
• 31:52 Political Astuteness and Power Dynamics

Transcript

Neil Milliken: 0:00

Hello and welcome AXSChat Chat. We're delighted that we are joined today by Giselle Marcus. Giselle is the Vice Dean am I getting that right at Olin, which is an educational institution in the States, and you're going to tell us which one in a moment and you have a background in industry and have come into education, bringing your industry experience in, and I think that the topic we're going to talk about today is leading across differences, which sounds fantastic, because one of the AXSChat that is always focused on is learning from different communities, different societies, different cultures, and so delighted to have you with us today. So, Giselle, please feel free to correct all the things I just got wrong about you and tell us a little bit more about the work that you're doing.

Giselle Marcus: 0:50

It was all right. So I am at. I'm at Olin Business School, which is at Washington University in St Louis, and for those of you who are like, where is St Louis, it's in the state of Missouri and it is a neighboring state to Illinois.

Neil Milliken: 1:06

Excellent, Thank you. And so you've had a background in some Fortune 500 companies and some people even outside of the US will recognize, like Accenture, Johnson Controls, et cetera, ET&T. These are big organizations. So what prompted you to move from working in the corporate world, which has its advantages and disadvantages, to moving into academia and teaching? What was the motivation?

Giselle Marcus: 1:39

You know, I have to say it somewhat was a little bit of luck. Have to say it somewhat was a little bit of luck. I actually went to WashU interviewing for an operations role, which is very much in my corporate swing plane, and it was. I should probably be in the Guinness Book of Records because it was the quickest interview I've ever had. It was seven minutes long for the recruiter to tell me that I was way overqualified for the job. And what happened was there were a couple of people that I knew who worked.

Giselle Marcus: 2:06

I used to be the president of the Harvard Business School Club of St Louis, the alumni club, and the person who was the president of the Harvard Club in St Louis worked at Olin. So, long story short, I had spoken to him and his wife. Both worked at my school and they would give me some insights before I interviewed. So when I didn't get the opportunity, I went back to them just to graciously say thank you for the conversation and let them know that I had a seven minute interview. And the wife says to me she's like I see you have diversity, equity and inclusion in your background. Can you tell me a little bit about that?

Giselle Marcus: 2:39

So I've never had a DEI titled role when I was in corporate, but oftentimes I was caught doing the work because I feel that wherever I plant my feet, I want to be comfortable there and I want my colleagues to be comfortable there as well.

Giselle Marcus: 2:54

So it played out that this young lady happened to be the chair of the organizational behavior department and for a year they were looking for a professor of practice for diversity, equity and inclusion.

Giselle Marcus: 3:06

So that's how it actually came about, but it, quite frankly, has been one of the best career moves I've ever had, because it gives me the opportunity to combine the operations component of what I do and what I'm expert at sales component which deals with both of those dealing with people right and ensuring that people feel included in terms of the work that they do. So it just felt like a natural fit, and what has been the aha moment for me is it gives me the chance to dance between both. So I still work within the corporate sphere because as a professor of practice, I'm teaching from the perspective of how to do inclusion within a workplace, and to do that I need to be in the workplace. So it gives me a chance to have a foot in the corporate space as well as a foot in academia, and I love what that has done just for the students that I have being able to benefit from the experience that I'm bringing from Fortune 500 companies into the classroom.

Neil Milliken: 4:12

Wow.

Neil Milliken: 4:13

So that's super, and part of my role is also operationalizing accessibility and disability inclusion within a large corporate and for our clients, so I can totally relate.

Neil Milliken: 4:25

But I'm on the other side and I do stuff in terms of teaching on the side, so I'm sort of the other side of the coin, if you like, so really interested in the fact that this, you're working on developing pedagogy for this, that you're like doing research in these topics, and I think that that's really cool because actually a lot of the time, especially in the current environment, there's an awful lot of pushback saying these aren't business topics and and deborah will know and I know deborah's got a question in a second, but deborah will know that quite often advocates in the space are using pretty dodgy statistics and pretty poor quality research, and so some of the stuff that we really need in terms of gaining credibility within businesses is really good empirical evidence of the return on investment or of the business benefits and all of these things, because quite often, frankly, it's made up stats or it's, you know, sort of we're conflating things to really create an argument, and what we really need is some rigor in terms of how we do this to gain that credibility.

Neil Milliken: 5:43

So I'm really interested that the business school has got this as a role, because I don't think I see very many of them. Maybe I'm wrong. Maybe there's like a whole collection of DEI professorships around the globe somewhere and I've not yet been admitted into the inner circle, but I don't think that that's the case. So this seems like a really special role.

Giselle Marcus: 6:06

It is, and you're absolutely right. There aren't that many institutions that actually teach the subject matter, so that makes us unique, and that is another reason why I thought this was a role that I should plant my feet in, because when you're operating an organization, I don't care what discipline it is, whether it's marketing, operations, strategy or finance. The common denominator is going to be people are going to be the ones to actually do the work, and for you to get the best out of people, people need to feel good about the environment that they're working in, and that is universal right. When we think, just think about.

Giselle Marcus: 6:48

Brene Brown talks about belonging right and how it really is an intrinsic value that we all have, and we probably all have a story of what I would call unbelonging right, when we were made to feel like we didn't belong in a place, and that could be. You know, you were wearing golf attire at event where you were supposed to be in business attire, for example, and you may have felt out of place. So I think everyone can actually relate to that and to your point about empirical evidence. There is a lot of research out there about when employees feel good about the work that they're doing. They will knock it out of the park for you as an organization, and organizations are wanting individuals who can come into their workplace and be able to lead across differences, and it's so interesting that you're titling this segment that, because that's actually the title of my course.

Debra Ruh: 7:48

And your course is called Leading Across Differences. I have a few questions, comments to make, and you know the audience is used to this. One thing that I'm just curious how long have you been in your role? Almost four years, all right, cool. I was just curious and I asked that, of course, your almost four years, all right, cool. I was just curious and I asked that. Of course we're both americans and of course everybody knows there is an out-out war, attack on dei and woe and whatever. I'm not even going to go into there.

Debra Ruh: 8:15

But something that I found and I was just curious if you found this as well, gazelle, because I also come from a very heavy corporate background, what I used to call corporate America. And then that's when I realized, yeah. So one thing that I was thinking at the time was that whenever people would say they were with education or they were with a nonprofit, I'd be like, oh, you're so cute. Okay, well, we're over here in corporate America doing the real work, and I wasn't really that bad. But I'm telling you there was some of that. As a young woman I had been taught that, and so there was still some of that in there. And so one thing that I find what I found was oh, that is so, not true. I personally believe quite a bit of the really important work is happening in some of our education not all of it, but some of it and also non-profits and NGOs are definitely changing the world and our corporations 100% are needed. But it's just very interesting.

Debra Ruh: 9:13

I read an article this morning that I will not say what it was, but it really it gave me major heartburn.

Debra Ruh: 9:20

It really did, because one thing that I would like to see is when these corporations are like, well, I'm doing this and we're doing this and we're doing that, I really want them to care about who they are leading for. Who are you leading for? Where are we going? And if you are not leading right now in a CEO role, which I see, and you're only focused on the money and the shareholders, we are exhausted by that people. We are so exhausted by that. So it feels to me more than ever we need leaders like you, giselle, that have been there and have walked it Once again. You mentioned off air that one of the reasons why you took and got this job was because of this leading across differences and so I was just wondering if you would just explore that a little bit more, telling us what you're doing with it. But I just really do believe, speaking to anyone that's listening to this it's time to lead. My goodness, we're so tired of you just focusing on your shareholders. We're really tired of it.

Giselle Marcus: 10:19

You're right. So that is exhausting. And we do realize that businesses are in business to make money, so we recognize that that's something that they need to do. But there is something called both and Right. So there is a way to be able to earn income but also treat people like humans and hey, and it's not against the law to do that Right. So that, I believe, is the secret sauce that's missing in a lot of companies.

Giselle Marcus: 10:47

And when we look at my class, we talk about millennials, we talk about Generation Z. Hey, they are voting with their feet. They are not interested as in young people, young people in my generation who would go to a job, and I can't. Even now I'm concerned about the culture of a place in terms of where I choose to work, but when I was in my 20s and 30s, that wasn't even a thought, it was just about okay, is it the industry I'd like and is it the income I want? I checked those two boxes. I would like that job. Check those two boxes, I would like that job.

Giselle Marcus: 11:27

Now, today, young people are saying, no, I don't want to work the way my parents did. I don't want to work in an environment where people don't see me and it's okay. I want to work in an environment where people recognize that I'm unique and that I have unique skills that my neighbor maybe Deborah or Neil or Antonio don't have, and my company is okay with me allowing for that to actually be the shining light. I want to feel that I'm valued, I matter, and that the conversations that I have are actually heard and don't fall on deaf ears. And if you think millennials and Generation Z are not doing this, try to have an environment where it is not inclusive and see how many of them raise their hand to say, yeah, I want to work for you. It will be very few, if not nil Antonio.

Antonio Santos: 12:20

Yeah, One of the things that we have been observing over the last couple of months is people shutting down programs on diversity and inclusion. But let's say, three years ago, those same interviews that were shutting down the programs were the ones proud about them. Oh, we are starting this. We've seen CEOs on calls proud about their initiatives, employees believing in whatever their leaders were saying I belong, I'm part of this place. And then, overnight, those same individuals who continue to lead the organizations, suddenly they don't follow the approach that they were preaching just a few months ago and the employees are still there. So they went okay, I really belong to this place, to a situation. So now do I belong? I don't belong. What should I do? So I'm trying to see how can we look at this from a leadership perspective and say now, do these individuals that change their views overnight because of a political agenda? Are they real leaders? Who are they?

Giselle Marcus: 13:34

after all, that's a great question. In my personal life and in my work life and I'm a newlywed in my married life something that is important to me is consistency, right, and when we're working or in our personal life, we can count on you can count on what you see people do. And what I mean by that is if you said one thing three years ago and you're like, yes, I'm waving the flag, inclusion is important, we want to make sure that we have diverse hiring, we want to make sure that we have diverse suppliers, and then you then say you know what? I changed my mind. What that does from the perspective of employee is it says that it's difficult to count on you Right, and I can no longer be trustful for the things that you set Right. So to me, when you do this 360, it really is something that is a trust disabler and people believe are beginning to see now that companies will say a thing and what they do is something different. And you have to then ask yourself is that the type of environment that I want to work in? Now I'm not. Now I get and, debra, we were talking about companies and financial gain, so companies do need to make money to stay in business, to hire employees. That's essential. It's all about how you go about a shift when you have leadership in your country that is anti-DEI right, and it's important for you.

Giselle Marcus: 15:43

In some instances we think about higher education, right. I mean higher education is under fire right now in terms of endowments being threatened in terms of the percentage of tax that they pay, right. So it's been like next to nothing and in some cases we're hearing it could be up to 20 percent. I mean that can actually shutter a school. Schools that have these National Institute of Health grants, national Science Foundation grants they are actually on the cutting edge of research, of Health grants, national Science Foundation grants they are actually on the cutting edge of research. And the federal government I think people didn't realize this has been funding this work for years, and I believe it was World War II when, as a country, we decided that we wanted to be premier in terms of research, and at that time is when the government started stepping in and actually funding schools to do this work. So now that that work is in jeopardy, schools are now challenged to figure out.

Giselle Marcus: 16:36

You know how do I actually dance between the two? You know how is it that I still show care for my stakeholders but also still be able to benefit from what the government is actually providing. So I think that just really puts you in a very challenging situation, and some schools are. Every school is doing it differently.

Giselle Marcus: 16:59

I'm on the board of trustees at Syracuse University and our chancellor just sent out an email yesterday saying that the diversity and inclusion office is being closed, but they are integrating some of that work into people and culture. Right, I think that, wow, what a beautiful thing to do, because the work needs to be done, because we have students that come from all over the world. We have professors that come from all over the world. So this is a time where it is somewhat necessary to pivot. But I think it's all about how you do it and being within the confines to be able to still do the work that you do, but also making sure that you are watchful and mindful about your customer and your stakeholders, and I think there are ways to be able to do that delicately, and I think that they're doing it well, as an example.

Debra Ruh: 17:54

Giselle, I love what you're saying and it's hard for me again. Neil just did a post for Disability Pride and he did it like the last day of Pride Month, which was July, and he said at one point that he almost feels a little bit like there's a wake going on right, because so many people that we deal with that we know have just really, you know, they've lost everything. And, like you said, we didn't know. I think a lot of people could probably figure out how I vote, but I think some people that voted did not realize the consequences of their votes. And, by the way, how could any of us realize how deep this would go? We have a saying I know it's not just in the US, but there's a saying that we use often here don't throw the baby out with the bathwater. And right now we are throwing out so much bathwater everywhere and there are babies there, and it's silly, but the reality is, it's there. And so I watch who's leading, I watch what these leaders are saying and they are disappointing me because I get it. I get there's a war on DEI and woke. I get it. I get it, I understand that. But the reality is, and it's great for us to say, oh, we're going to put it in people and culture, and I agree with you. I think that's a good idea.

Debra Ruh: 19:14

Why are we not looking at this? Why it's human inclusion. It's human inclusion. And don't tell me, oh, you're making all this money on AI now. Aren't you smart? No, what are you doing to really care about our world and who we are? We are diverse. It's the beauty of being a human. Anyway, it'll make me crazy. It's just so backwards thinking. I'm just shocked, anyway, but I am curious. I think I know this and I'm often disappointed in what I think I know. But how are the students responding to all of this? I would be so interested because I'm like you. You're obviously much younger than me. Everybody on this call is younger than me, but they don't know, debra, we won't tell here, we can talk off air.

Giselle Marcus: 19:58

All right, cool.

Debra Ruh: 19:59

You look much, anyway, but I just I think that what a lot of these leaders just really still don't get is we are, we are really watching, and the young people are no longer willing to put up with what I had to. I thought, as a woman coming into technology which, by the way, there were no women in there and they were still smoking in the office when I went into technology Smoking. I didn't smoke, but they were smoking right next to me. Anyway, times have changed, but it was all men and I tried to dress like a man, as they told me, putting on my man suit, my little bow tie.

Debra Ruh: 20:35

But sorry, I mean, we all know these things right, we know you have a darker color skin than I do, giselle, you have a beautiful color skin than I. You wouldn't have been allowed in these conversations, in these conversations, and so I just am so annoyed at the lack of leadership, I'm just so getting so very annoyed. But at the same time I do understand all this is happening, and I think there's a lot happening that maybe the world doesn't realize yet. So back to that question how are your students responding to this?

Giselle Marcus: 21:09

You know, so that's going to be a great question, because the students are on their way back to school. You know it's summer for us, so they've been off quite honestly, so a lot has happened. You know it's like, well, while you were away. So it's going to remain to be seen in terms of you know how they weigh in, but I think it's also it's on the university right to recognize that when they do come back, what is it that we're going to say to them, right? What's going to be different about their experience? So one thing that I will say you know, at my institution we have student clubs that are specific to geography, whether that's international or domestic. We have student clubs that are specific to ethnicity, and you know we still have those things. So when they come back, they'll still find those places and spaces of belonging. But we're just ensuring, right, that, as it was, anyone could join. Like, for example, we have a Olin Africa Club. That's amazing, by the way, they put on a great annual conference. But, example, we have a Olin Africa Club. That's amazing, by the way, they put on a great annual conference. But anyone can actually join the Olin Africa Club, right? And what's interesting is, you rarely see people that aren't from Africa in the club, but it always has been open. But we have to be intentional to make sure that students understand that even if it's the Asian club, you're welcome, or it's the women's club, everyone is still welcome. And it's interesting. I serve on the board of a publicly traded bank called First Mid Bank Shares, and they are in the process of kind of forming like a women's employee network, so to speak. It's not quite formalized yet, but they've had an event and what I loved about it, there were men that actually came to it to kind of hear about well, what are they talking about? What are we missing out on? And I have daughters and I want to be able to help them. So what our students will experience from a student club perspective is that they're all still intact and nothing really has changed. They've always been open to all. We'll just be promoting more. So to remind students, hey, you can join the Olin India Club, for example.

Giselle Marcus: 23:27

And in my classroom I actually have a segment called DEI Around the Globe. And I should say this too about our MBA students. Last year, out of a class of a little over 100, we actually had 29 countries represented, right. So they have an assignment where they're given a. So they have an assignment where they're given a country and they need to study.

Giselle Marcus: 23:59

Because when I teach leading across differences, I'm here in the States, so I'm teaching it from a US perspective. But I tell them you cannot take what I have put it in the suitcase and drop that in China because it's not going to work. So I teach them how to do an analysis about inclusion of different countries, right? So I ask them in this particular country, you know who are the privileged people, who are the people that aren't privileged and why is that? Right? I ask them to choose a couple of diversity dimensions and tell me how that manifests in the workplace. So, for example, neil, students could say I want to look at, you know, in Ghana, you know how are people in the workplace with disabilities. You know how do they show up in the workplace?

Giselle Marcus: 24:40

Someone might say you know Singapore? That's a place where we actually have taken our students on what we call our previous global immersion. And in Singapore, you know, it's a place where LGBT is not welcomed. Right, it's against the law to have public displays of affection of people of the same sex, for example. So a student may want to study. How does that manifest in the workplace? How does LGBTQ manifest in the United States? Right, and if you were the president of that country and you could wave a magic wand, what is it that you'd wanna do differently?

Giselle Marcus: 25:15

So and that is one of the top two features of my class because a lot of our students realize that the world is global and where they're going to be working, even if it's not an entity that's global, they're gonna run into people in their company from different places around the world, around the globe, and you need to understand that if they are from, say, an Asian country and you're in a meeting and they're not looking you in the eye, it's not because there's something wrong with them.

Giselle Marcus: 25:47

This is a culture that they come from, where looking someone in the eye is something that they don't do, particularly if it's someone of authority, for example, in some Asian country.

Giselle Marcus: 25:57

So we're giving students the opportunity to be better leaders in the places and spaces where they show up, because wherever they place their feet and they say that they went to Washington University we want them to be a standout employee and, like you said earlier, a number I think it was you, neil that a number of schools don't actually have this type of course. So we feel that our students are really at a great advantage when they go into the workplace, because their peers are not majority of their peers would not have had this training. So they're able to walk into the workplace with a level of comfort working with people that may have a different religion, working with someone who may be neurodiverse, working with someone that may have some type of mental illness, someone who may be depressed, for example, and they're able to navigate those waters better than their peers. So that's how we want to prepare our students to navigate those waters better than their peers.

Antonio Santos: 26:54

So that's how we want to prepare our students. We know that young people the four of us we are 25, and sometimes the aspirations of people at 25 are very similar, regardless of the generation we are in. I would like from your students is there any particular trend or focus that they have that might be slightly different from previous generations in relation to how they see and look at the topic of leadership?

Giselle Marcus: 27:24

I believe that this generation, more so than mine, wants to hold leadership accountable for the things that they say, and I feel that our generation didn't necessarily do that. It just wasn't, as the young people say, it wasn't a thing right. So when our students go into interviews, they usually ask some very pointed questions about. Your website says this your CEO said that how does that manifest in the workplace? Tell me you know how that looks on the ground. Tell me some statistics around the fact that you say you have an inclusive culture. What is the indicator and how do you go about improving that? So I feel that the I would say the students are more so. If you think about a boxing ring, you know putting some of these companies on the ropes, so to speak, and they have to answer questions that I didn't even ask when I was, you know, at at Accenture, which was Anderson Consulting, you know, back in the day, so to speak.

Neil Milliken: 28:37

So I think that's a great question, great answer, and we're coming towards the end of our time. But I can't help but follow up on that because I think that, yes, that younger generation are asking questions and have expectations of leadership that are different than previous generations, but at the same time, the power balance between leadership and business ownership and the general populace has shifted right. There were a few decades where, you know, you had a burgeoning middle class and an education system, and and people were generally empowered even if they weren't wearing their man suit and their dickie bow. And now, actually, that Gen Z and the millennial generation are much worse off financially than their parents' generation and so on. They're less empowered financially and we have this shift and the aggregation of wealth amongst the super wealthy and the super powerful organizations. So, although we have an attitudinal change across the generations, how do you in higher ed partners on a topic called political astuteness?

Giselle Marcus: 29:48

right and the importance of that. So to your point. In terms of power dynamics, you are right in that the power typically lies in the upper echelon of business entities. However, what we see sometimes is we see informal power, too right, where someone might not necessarily have the title, but somehow they have great political capital that may be on a higher scale than their so-called station in life, so to speak. So you may have a middle manager who, from a political perspective, may have power maybe it's not money but has power in terms of, say, leading a business unit that may be in billions of dollars, for example, right, and the power doesn't necessarily equate to the CEO's salary per se, but you're able to be looked to as someone who gets things done.

Giselle Marcus: 31:07

So it's not just so.

Giselle Marcus: 31:09

People should not assume I think young people do this a lot that they say well, because I am an entry-level person, you know they have this feeling of I don't have power or I'm limited in what I can do.

Giselle Marcus: 31:21

People have to also realize that, based on where you sit, the level of influence that you have can make a difference in the political capital that you have within a business, and I think that that's something that's really important and that people tend not to see, and I try to tell my students pay attention to the power dynamics within the place where you work. Watch the things that go on. Who's having the meeting? Before the meeting when you come into the meeting, can you tell us a decision already been made and, if so, who's making those decisions? And are you in that room? And if you're not in that room, how do you get in that room? Do you have a sponsor? Who's speaking your name when you're not in the space, for example? So there's ways to gain influence in these places and spaces of work that take you beyond your station of where you are entitled.

Neil Milliken: 32:13

Fantastic. So we've come to the end of our time. It's run off way too quickly. It has Amazon and MyClearText for keeping us on air, keeping us captioned, and also, if people want to find you, where do people go and find you and your work?

Giselle Marcus: 32:31

Certainly, I asked them. You can follow me on LinkedIn, so on LinkedIn, I'm the only Giselle Marcus that's there, so that's G-I-S-E-L-E is my first name. Last name Marcus M-A-R-C-U-S. I also have a website, gisellemarcuscom, so you can find me there in terms of the work that I'm doing that relates to cultural fluency.

Neil Milliken: 32:52

That's wonderful. Thank you so much.