From Developer to Advocate: Building an Accessible Future in Germany

Marc Haunschild joins AXSChat to share his experiences as an accessibility consultant helping companies navigate the European Accessibility Act and comply with modern digital inclusion standards. Drawing from nearly two decades as a developer, Mark offers practical insights into the challenges and opportunities that arise when organizations commit to accessibility.

The conversation explores how the German government implements an innovative scoring system for evaluating vendors that goes beyond binary pass/fail accessibility metrics. This transparent approach considers multiple factors including team diversity and pricing alongside accessibility requirements, creating a more holistic evaluation process. Mark explains why this system encourages progress without demanding unattainable perfection - using a brilliant car safety analogy to illustrate how baseline requirements can ensure usability without overwhelming organizations new to accessibility.

We delve into generational differences in accessibility adoption, with Mark noting how younger developers often embrace these principles enthusiastically once exposed to them. The discussion tackles the misconception that AI will solve all accessibility challenges, with Mark clarifying where automation helps and where human expertise remains essential. He also emphasizes the value of collaboration among accessibility professionals to tackle larger projects and gain diverse perspectives.

As Germany faces the challenges of an aging population with increasing accessibility needs, Mark's work represents the practical, measured approach needed to create sustainable progress. His insights demonstrate how thoughtful implementation of standards can drive meaningful inclusion without overwhelming organizations just beginning their accessibility journey.

Ready to learn more about implementing accessibility in your organization? Connect with Mark through his website or the "Accessibility by Default" project to benefit from his practical, balanced approach to digital inclusion.

Chapters

• 0:00 Introduction to Mark Hounschut
• 1:46 European Accessibility Act Impact
• 3:18 Government Scoring System Approach
• 6:31 Accessibility vs Perfection Balance
• 10:10 Young Developers and Accessibility Education
• 16:18 AI's Role in Accessibility
• 20:53 Collaboration in Accessibility Work
• 22:10 Closing and Contact Information

Transcript

Debra Ruh : 0:01

Hello everyone. Welcome to AXSChat. Today you have Antonio and I, and um, it was Neil's wedding anniversary, so his wife said he was not going to work today. As Mark said, happy wife, happy life, right, Mark? So Mark, welcome to Access Chat. We're really excited about talking to you about what you're doing in Germany and how you're collaborating with others, and also how you're working with parts of the German government. So it's very exciting. Do you mind telling the audience a little bit, Mark, about your work? I know you are a digital accessibility consultant. You're very engaged with really making sure things are accessible for everybody. But tell us more about who you are and welcome to the program.

Marc Haunschild: 0:39

Yeah, thank you for the nice welcome. Um I'm an accessibility consultant. I'm helping companies to get more accessible. Now we have the European Accessibility Act, and there are really some concerns about how to comply. And so, yeah, I'm getting the questions and I'm answering them. And a lot is about testing and finding problems, and I had to fix them. As being a developer myself, earlier for nearly 20 years, I was making accessible web pages, websites, and I think I can give some good advice to them.

Antonio Santos: 1:18

Yes, I think that I think that's that's a good pointer that you mentioned the European Accessibility Act. And considering that you are working as a freelance and you are also doing some work supporting government initiatives, how do you see the private organizations and sometimes people who work in the government sector looking at the European Accessibility Act? You mentioned that there are questions. How do you uh what is your your view about how these two entities see the act?

Marc Haunschild: 1:46

This is a wide uh spectrum. Can I can I say this in English? Yeah, because that it's from complete ignorance, I don't care, until the fear of lawsuits and that people are concerned and they want to comply. And also, of course, it's raising awareness. And some people are really interested in making some impact. They were not thinking about accessibility until now, and they now want to do the right thing. This is also there now. So the European Accessibility Act has an impact and a good one, and it I think it's good that we have it.

Debra Ruh : 2:23

I think so too. I think it's really a blessing that the EU did that. Because if the EU had not done that right now with the what we're doing in the States with DEI and woke and things like that, it just it just I think would have been so much harder for the world. So I'm really, really, really thankful that the EU was standing up and saying humans matter, human inclusion matters. So, but Mark, you also have worked with the German government. And could you tell us a little bit more about what you're doing there and how that really plays into you being an accessibility consultant too? Because before we went on air, you were telling Antonio and I some really interesting stuff about using words like metrics and scoring and points. And so I really liked hearing those words that you were using because that sounded to me like that's when we actually make things accessible to humans. But do you mind just telling us a little bit more about that?

Marc Haunschild: 3:19

Yeah, um, the um government is in a quite good position. It's hard to pursue the government, and there are some steps you have to achieve before you can do anything. So um I think this is a good position to make things really good without trying to have perfection from the very beginning. Because Dubkeck and all the other standards have a problem. I think they are made with the um with the thought that people would not uh code some completely uh stupid things. But when you have a web page already done and you find out you're not compliant and you try to fix it, you're getting um very um uh you you uh you find fantastic solutions nobody thought about before. And uh I always want uh give this example with the uh focus visible. And there's only one major concern. This uh focus indicator has to have enough contrast to the background of three to one. So formally I think you can make one by one pixel dot to make this indicator uh compliant to WCAG. Of course, I hope nobody's doing this, but this means not all of these things, if you're really getting creative, will help real people. And with this in mind, I think getting formal perfection is not always a guarantee for becoming completely usable for people. And yeah, we have this scoring system where not one single thing like accessibility is making that somebody who is applying cannot get the job or not, even if he is not perfect in one thing. There are some different features like the best team. Is the team diverse? Maybe one thing you want to have. For example, people with disabilities on the uh team or women and men, things like this, but also of course the price, also very important. So you have a scoring system in the end, and you can decide much more just better than putting just one thing, and this is a KO. And if you if somebody cannot make this, he's out at once without chance.

Debra Ruh : 5:46

And it it sounds like consistency. The good news about doing it that way, you're being consistent in what you're scoring for.

Marc Haunschild: 5:53

And transparency. So everybody who's applying can see.

Debra Ruh : 5:57

Yes, which I really love that too. And I also love that the word that you were using. I'm not really sure if we can use the words perfection and accessibility in the same sentence because uh accessibility, it's moving. Yeah. So if you're going for perfection, you're gonna get yourself really stressed by doing that. But one thing I loved about what you were talking about before we went on air, when you're talking about how you're scoring these things for the government to make sure that the vendors that the government select is doing the right thing by the people, we all get that. But, you know, you make sure this information is available to all of the vendors. And that is something that I do not think that we've done very well at in the United States. We would just say, nope, you didn't get it. You know, if you heard, you didn't get it, but you never knew why. So by y'all taking the time to help them understand why somebody else is going to get it and you're not, I think really motivates the vendors. And so I applaud that. I also think it's really powerful that not only are you working with a German government, this part of the government, to really make sure that things are accessible for the German citizens, but you are also a digital consultant on your own. So you can provide I think a lot of support to these vendors in ways that they don't always get supported on because um we're hearing things mark like, well, we don't really need to worry about it anymore because AI is going to solve accessibility. So all we have to do is just push a button and and we're done. So then you're just gonna mark get all 100% scores on everything you'd oh, probably not. But I know Antonio wants to come in, but hi.

Antonio Santos: 7:37

Yeah, I I I I have a question for Mark. Um you you are based in in Germany, so Germany has a very strong culture of perfection around engineering. Some other European countries also have it, you know, and sometimes when we compete with US companies, we miss the competition because waiting for having everything done perfect. So, how an accessibility expert deals with that at the same time that you want to do the right thing, knowing that it's impossible to be perfect when working in the space of accessibility.

Marc Haunschild: 8:11

The first thing I'm I'm always saying when it comes to compliance is that people always say there's no such thing like 100% accessibility, and this is true. But the same as um uh when I'm talking to not uh techni tech not developer, uh I'm trying to use examples from the real life, and I'm saying, yes, this is true, but cars are not 100% safe, but still we want them to have a minimal safety, so the brakes should work, the light should work, so some things must be in order if you want to go with them on the street. And the same is with accessibility. Neither the WCAC or nor the European Accessibility Act demand that you are 100 um percent accessible, it's just the baseline. And I was doing this 20 years for myself as a developer, so I know perfectly that you can achieve this and even a proper way that people can use. So you're making a border around an input field and not a single dot. So this is possible, and I think this is the good news here because we have a minimal baseline that you actually can reach. You have to know the criteria and then you can fulfill them. But there is one but you have to learn it before you can do it. And if you're an agency and you build up an uh library, a tool set, however you want to call it, it will not be uh a lot of work anymore. Because if you have made the slider accessible once, you can use it in every project again, and it will mean not more work to make an accessible slider conform to a corporate design than a non-accessible slider. So if you have your tool set right once, then the effort is becoming less and less. So I always tell the clients it's an initial effort you have to make, learning and making your tool, getting your tool set right, and then that's not so hard anymore. But of course, you have to learn it and you should do it from the beginning. It's always really difficult to make it afterwards.

Debra Ruh : 10:31

Right, right. It yeah, it gets a lot more expensive doing it afterwards. Mark, I'm curious from the other side of the pond, are you seeing the vendors really say, all right, we're gonna do this and really stepping up? First of all, I'm curious about that. Darn it, you're shaking your head. No, that's not good. All right. And also, I'm wondering if you're seeing any accidental innovations already coming from this. We're seeing from the billion-strong world uh look looking in a different place. We are seeing some interesting innovations happening, but I still don't know if we can tie it to, you know, certain things. So sadly, I saw you you shook your head. No, you're not seeing the vendors really step up and get excited about the humans being included. Yeah. So let me let me turn the give the microphone over to you to talk about.

Marc Haunschild: 11:18

Yeah, actually, uh I I'm I shook my head. Yeah, this was my first reaction. But of course, this is once again, it's it has some different levels. Of course, there are companies who are trying to make things better. We have good examples for this also. But in general, this is not the first thing people are thinking about when they're inventing something new. And we are in a world that is inventing faster and faster, and everybody is always impressed with the next big thing and what you can achieve and how to make it. And normally this is done by people that do not have disabilities, and they just don't know about the challenges for people who do have. And so this is not even something bad they intend to do. It's just young people. Most of young people uh are not do not have illnesses or disabilities, and so they are just living in their own world. They are doing what they think is cool, and this is what's creating this gap between uh the many people and the few that have difficulties to step up, uh to keep up with this speed. It's not only about disabilities, also about age and different cultures, and we know this.

Antonio Santos: 12:37

Nobody, especially young people, always think about everything that uh and everybody No, I run a few a few acathons in Dublin on accessibility. So we had a lot of young people coming in and what would usually happen is why haven't I heard about this sooner? Why haven't my teachers in my in the coding classes have sought me about this? This is something that now that I'm here, I feel that I need to learn. So the curiosity is there. The issue is that nobody has ever put that in front of them. So I think it's also up to us to have some responsibility there.

Marc Haunschild: 13:26

Yeah, absolutely right. And once again, I don't want to make some uh bad impression on young people. Uh again, they are the people who are progressive and they are getting speed on the DIY, uh DEY and all these things that are changing our world to the better. If they know about things like this, I think they are much more open than people who don't have to work any long anymore and they are doing the things like they have done it all the time and don't know why to change it just a few years before getting out of work. And I think this is, let's say, I think it's something that I'm considering in my work also. For example, when it comes to accessible documents, I'm teaching the young people and they are normally willing to do this. I put less uh pressure on the older people because I know they will not work there forever anymore. So if you want to make things uh better, and especially if you have restricted resources, um never-ending resources, I think uh this is a good strategy not to put a lot of effort where it's put the effort there where you get the most of.

Antonio Santos: 14:45

Okay, so let me comment on that briefly. Just to ask a question, just to put a few things into context. Let's say, Mark, uh you are in 2020, you have a new project with the customer, and now Mark, you are in 2025, we have a new project with the customer. Do you feel a difference in the way how you have to explain yourself and you have to justify what you are doing? This is an interesting question.

Marc Haunschild: 15:09

Actually, I can I think I cannot answer this question because being such a small company, I have enough to do for one person, especially in part-time. So people are coming to me that need help, and I don't have to explain it. And in the my work in the Federal Office of Food and Agriculture in Germany, I have this role to do this. Earlier as a developer, this was what I'm doing still in 2020. And now I just have a different role and I'm doing this from a different perspective. But of course, I always have to advocate this, but this didn't change. People always want to know why we have to do this, and I'm explaining. I think this will never change because there are always new people. Everything is in change. And so I don't know if you want to talk about it, but of course it's a big topic. It's uh nearly you cannot name it. It's AI. So they are asking you why we have to do this, because cannot AI do this for us, and then I have to explain where it cannot yet do this. But of course, there are interesting things, is but not on the side of the people who are making things, but for the people with disabilities. This is already big help. Maybe it's not making perfect uh um sign language, but of course it's if there is a webpage that does not have sign language, German or American or whatever, at all. This might help understand the webpage.

Antonio Santos: 16:46

Easier language or whatever. It's also important to notice that Germany is one of the countries with one of the oldest aging populations in Europe, and that is going to be increased over the next decade.

Marc Haunschild: 16:59

Yeah. Definitely. Uh, this is a big problem in every uh aspect. For example, how to f uh finance people that are getting older to the care for them. We all know that the older the group is, the more disabilities are there, and the more relevant is the work we are doing. On the other hand, of course, it's important always to keep in mind that disability is uh does not mean making things for old people, because of course young people also can have can be blind or whatever.

Debra Ruh : 17:32

Yeah. I also want to say that something I just find interesting is that when we first started working, when we were working on accessibility early on in the gosh, we started it in, well, we can argue about when we started it, but say that in 2001 when we had updated our Section 508 again. I found that the U.S. Department of Agriculture here in the United States, obviously U.S. Department, but they were really big on this. And they they were one of my first clients when I worked with them. And they were one of the agencies, which I just was a little surprised, Mark. I thought, why is agriculture doing this? I would think other agencies would have started first, technology agencies or policy. No, it was agriculture in the U.S. was one of the first. I always thought that was interesting, and then y'all are doing it there in Germany. So don't know why, but that's intriguing. The question that I have, you had talked about this a little bit once again before we went on air, but you've mentioned it on air multiple times. You are a small individual company, and yes, you have a client with the German government, but you also have other clients, but you had talked about collaboration. I also think the point you just made with, well, AI is going to already solve this, right? Because some of our leaders in accessibility have already said we've solved. Okay. Nope, not yet. But it is interesting. It's like, well, why are we having to do this? Why can't AI do it? People are saying, but I'm just curious why you feel collaboration is probably more important now than ever before, especially collaborating with other teams when you have a really tiny team like yourself.

Marc Haunschild: 19:04

Yeah. First thing of all, I was working as a freelancer sometimes for bigger companies, and they just have the really interesting projects. I don't I nearly said the more interesting projects, but it's not that's not true. There are especially small projects. Uh you have in the small project projects, you have sometimes so dedicated teams that really want to get the best of everything and have a quality first approach that in bigger countries is it's harder to find because they have uh um it's just complete different structure and they are working in a complete different way. But of course, it's also very interesting to work with big countries in big contexts and make a big impact. So, this is what's in making this interesting. As a freelancer, I was not able to uh get these jobs or for obvious reasons, and so I was teaming up with a company in another city, it's called Mönchengladbach, very hard to expla uh to say for English speaking people. Uh they are we know the football team. Yeah, great, yeah. And uh I'm very happy that this happened because now we can uh work with much bigger projects and do a lot of good things on a bigger scale. But apart from this, I'm always a big fan of collaboration, of teaming up with others. For example, with Artos with Beatrice, I was working sometimes, and uh I'm a member of the International Um Association of Accessibility Professionals because of community, and uh I think this is very important uh thing, especially when you it comes to different opinions, because this it's a complete new topic, and I don't want to talk about this too much, but I think it's important to talk with people that are not the same opinion and to deal with it and to accept it and not to live only in a single bubble where everybody is telling you how good you are.

Debra Ruh : 21:13

I agree, and I think also we've I've seen earlier on some mistakes made in that there were a few leaders that somehow convinced people they had all the answers, and it's that's not true. This is innovation, we're all still learning. I I remember when Antonio Neill and I were talking about doing this show, we're like, oh, well, we won't need to do it for very long. Well, we're in 11 years. We do this every week. We're in 11 years, and there's still a lot to talk about. But speaking of that, I know we've run out of time, and I want to um I want to do a couple of things. I want to first of all thank um Amazon. Thank you, thank you, thank you for keeping us on here. And our original sponsor, my clear text, which makes sure that we're fully accessible, which we're grateful for. But also, Mark, we want to learn how if somebody wants to work with you, if somebody wants to collaborate with you, if somebody wants to hire you, how would they find you? How would they reach out to you? I know you have a website, but how do they find out more about working with you? Because we would highly recommend working with Mark. He's brilliant. We love Beatrice. She's not going to steer us wrong. And I've heard about Mark also before even Beatrice said, you got to have this brilliant man on Access Chat. So over to you, Mark.

Marc Haunschild: 22:23

Thank you very much for this opportunity. Of course, I have I'm lucky that I have a non-usual surname. If you're searching for Mark Hounschut, it's quite easy to find me. English people sometimes pronounce it Haunts Child. This is not correct, but maybe it's easier to find me then. And uh the project I was mentioning with the company in Manchin Gladbach, it's called Accessibility by Default. And if you want to get in touch, I'm happy to meet you.

Debra Ruh : 22:50

Yes, and we'll also put the link to his website and everything on the episode as well. So Antonio, any last words before we uh let Mark go?

Antonio Santos: 23:01

Thank you so much for for for joining us, Mark. It was uh uh real nice to really nice to have you and hope that we can know maybe we can uh uh talk again in the near future in another episode.

Debra Ruh : 23:13

I work really like I would say also, Mark and Antonio, one thing that we saw as this has unfolded, once again we started talking. I started in this field in 2000. So I've been I've been in the field a little bit a while, as has an Antonio, but it's interesting to see the the field shift because I remember when I first started talking to Antonio Neal, Neil would often say, Well, the accessibility cowboys in the States, Deborah. And I'm like, stop it. If we are not, it's just interesting, because there was some truth to it, but it's just interesting to see it shift and unfold and new voices really being featured so that we can understand this is about humanity. It's not about anyone contrary, anyone law. This is really about making sure that beautiful human beings are fully included at every single stage of their life. So we really appreciate you, Mark. So thank you for being on the show today.

Marc Haunschild: 24:07

Thank you very much for this talk. I really loved this and I would be happy to be here again.

Debra Ruh : 24:12

Okay, yay. We want to have you back again. All right, bye, everyone.

Marc Haunschild: 24:17

Goodbye.