From Mission-Driven Branding To Real-World Accessibility

What if the most powerful part of your brand is the part most users can’t see? We sit down with designer and agency founder Rochelle Ratkaj Moser to unpack how accessibility becomes a strategic advantage when it’s baked into visual storytelling, not bolted on at the end. From plain-language copy to thoughtful reading order, alt text with meaning, and semantic structure that guides both people and screen readers, we explore the practical moves that turn mission statements into experiences everyone can use.

Rochelle shares lessons from work with education nonprofits and the Brain Injury Association of America, reframing disability as a shifting spectrum rather than a checkbox. We talk about cognitive accessibility, low reading ages, and why designing for moments of disadvantage—fatigue, distraction, sensory overload—creates better outcomes for all. The budget conversation gets real: if roughly 26% of adults live with a disability, ignoring access is like burning one dollar of every four. Building access from the start saves money, avoids technical debt, and raises conversion because users can actually finish tasks.

We also dig into the surprising synergy between accessibility, SEO, and AI. The same scaffolding that helps humans—clear headings, descriptive alt text, labeled tables—helps search engines and language models parse content more accurately. But we push back on designing for bots over people, calling out keyword stuffing in alt fields and reminding teams that ethical design serves humans first. For leaders and new designers alike, Rochelle offers a values-first approach to client selection, guidance on navigating DEI rollbacks, and encouragement to learn accessibility early—including emerging areas like XR, where standards are still evolving.

If you care about brand trust, usability, and real reach, this conversation gives you a roadmap to make accessibility your competitive edge. Subscribe, share with a colleague who owns your website or content pipeline, and tell us: what’s one change you’ll make this week to include more users?

Chapters

• 0:00 Meet Rochelle And Ratkash Design
• 2:37 Accessibility As A Design Foundation
• 5:55 Cognitive Accessibility And Plain Language
• 9:40 Visual Storytelling Beyond Colors And Fonts
• 13:20 Spectrum Of Disability And Gray Areas
• 18:30 Designing For Moments Of Disadvantage
• 22:50 Misconceptions And The Budget Objection
• 28:40 SEO, AI, And Accessibility Overlap

Transcript

SPEAKER_02: 0:00

Hello and welcome to Access Chat. It's just myself and Antonio this week, but we're delighted to welcome Rochelle Ratchai Moser, who is the founder and chief creator of Creative Officer of Ratcash Design. I'm doing well here. I'm mangling the pronunciations as anticipated. So welcome, Rochelle. It's great to have you with us. Can you tell us a little bit about the work you're doing? You're an inclusive design advocate and passionate about making stuff that works for everyone. But tell us a bit more about your work and what you're doing. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00: 0:36

Absolutely. So we are a full service visual branding agency. We work with a lot of mission-driven brands to allow them to create something that meets all their audience needs, not just the audiences that they think that they're reaching out to. So a lot of our mission-driven work centers around accessibility in different arenas, meaning we work a lot in the education nonprofit space, meaning we're working with English learners in the public education system in the United States, primarily in California. So we're overcoming language barriers, diversity barriers, accessibility when it comes to funds and access barriers. But then we're also working with nonprofits like the Brain Injury Association of America, who are overcoming brain injury and traumatic brain injury complications from whether it be uh acquired brain injuries or developmental things like that. So we're we're seeing accessibility from multiple different angles. So it's really become a cornerstone of the offerings of our agency and something that we bake into the design right from the very beginning.

SPEAKER_02: 1:45

Wonderful. And um I really have uh an interest in cognitive accessibility because it's it's one of the areas of accessibility that's less well recognized.

SPEAKER_00: 1:57

Absolutely.

SPEAKER_02: 1:58

And yet has such a massive halo impact on the general usability and understandability of products, services, systems, etc. So the fact that you're working for organizations that target our audience is people with developmental disabilities and cognitive accessibility needs means that you, by the very nature of the work you're doing in the customer base, are looking to make things easily understandable and communicate well. So you know, you talk you talk to us a little bit about the sort of work that you do on visual storytelling and how that helps promote better sort of communication understanding.

SPEAKER_00: 2:44

Yeah, so um a lot of our focus are is on pieces that is uh that are not actually visible to the to the general public or general um eye when you're looking at the design. Of course, we're being thoughtful with our our color choices, our font choices, things like that. But I feel like that's uh that's a general across all design. If you're a good designer, you're thinking about those things. So we take that a step further and we're able to implement alt tagging, story threading, speech tagging that then is used for screen readers, things like that. But we're also thinking about the usability, the end user, as we're developing the design or the story that is being told through whether it be a long-form publication piece or a campaign, we're really thinking through what is the end user's experience of accessing that information? So we're taking what is normally taken for granted with a visual or or um you know standard access to a piece and going, okay, but what does that mean if you're not able to parse that information? What does that mean if you're not able to read five lines of copy in a consecutive order? What does that mean if you can't see this visual that is imperative to understanding the rest of the piece? So we're really uh allowing for access wherever we're meeting people at the corner in which they're they're currently in their journey, opposed to assuming everyone's on a level playing field.

SPEAKER_02: 4:11

And I I think that quite frequently we assume that people have greater levels of concentration and greater levels of literacy than the than they generally do in the in the wider populace. So it's it's surprisingly low how like the reading age of of the like the UK population and the US population is actually only about 11 or 12 years old.

SPEAKER_00: 4:37

Yes, yes. And so that actually plays into is that a disability? Um, because for not all individuals that's seen as a disability, but that is the very thing that we still are providing access for. When we talk about disability, so many people right away jump to these very apparent disabilities. Someone who is fully blind, somebody who is fully immobile, somebody who is fully deaf, things like that. Yes, those are very exacting standards. But when we talk about disability, there are so many gray areas. It's very much a spectrum. So when we talk about meeting people with disabilities and what that actually all entails, it is really an ambiguous number. When you talk about, and again, based in the US, I can talk about US numbers. I can't necessarily um talk about world numbers. But in the US, if you're listening to the centers of disease control and world health organizations, we have 61 million people with a disability. Now, what does that entail? That's a great question because someone who has maybe ADHD, is that a disability, or is that just something that is a condition but not necessarily causes a disability? Is dyslexia seen as a real disability, or is that just something that you overcome? So we have these very gray areas, but accessible design, when used properly, actually meets all of those individuals at the places that they actually are, opposed to assuming that everybody has the ability to overcome whatever disability, whatever barriers, whatever um, you know, hurdles that they're overcoming. And it really does level that playing field. It creates something that allows people to pick their own journey, allows people to access however they see fit.

SPEAKER_02: 6:26

So gonna pick on you. I'm dyslexic in ADHD. I I would I take your point, right? Um, and and you're kind of voicing it from uh the point of view of an outsider, working out whether or not they consider themselves to have a disability. Much of the time, A, I don't look disabled. I mean, I may have not been able to use a razor blade, but uh I don't look disabled. And much of the time I'm able to succeed in academia in my career and so on and so forth, because I've got coping strategies. But there are times where I'm unable to do things that other people aren't, and that's when you find yourself in a position of disability. And that's what um you know that's where sort of neurodivergent conditions differ from you know the the you know the the extreme ends of the disability spectrum where someone is fully blind, fully deaf, or or whatever. Yeah, we don't always find ourselves disabled by the situations or our condition is not disabling. And then people talk about the strengths of neurodivergent conditions as well. Now, definitely, you know, uh there are certain things that make these things disabilities, but we're not always disabled. Uh and uh many people in the neurodivergent community don't uh consider themselves to have a disability, they just consider themselves to have a different. I think it's important from a point of view of uh making sure that you have the legal protections and all the rest of it, that we still um uh keep these things under the umbrella of disabilities so that people don't get discriminated against. And I I um what I I I couldn't help myself jumping in. I know Antonio's got a question, but I just wanted to follow up on that point because I think that you're designing from a point of view for people that don't consider themselves to have a disability but might find themselves in a position of disadvantage.

SPEAKER_00: 8:23

What we really want to make sure is that anyone at any given moment can access the information. So similarly, um, and sorry, Antonio, I'm jumping in as a yes aeon tier. So my son is six and he is on the autism spectrum. And we are so frequently told, you would never know he's autistic. Yes, you don't live with him. You wouldn't know at any given moment my son is autistic. The way that he accesses and remembers information is completely different than other individuals. And sometimes that's a superpower, sometimes that can make things difficult. But I can't tell you how many times we have heard after assessments and after meeting him, well, he's not autistic enough. And I go, Well, I'm sorry. I didn't know that there was a qualifier here. He has a medical diagnosis of autism, he is on the autism spectrum. Medically, he is there. However, he's not being, he's not able to access some of these tools that may make learning easier. And I think about that often. Um, I started this journey before my son was born, but I think about him as he goes through life. And I think about yes, you do technically have a disability. You are able to overcome it yourself and may not need as many accommodations, but you still have a disability. And just because you overcome that disability or don't have a diagnosis, I can't tell you how many adults that have a disability that don't have a diagnosis, that doesn't mean you shouldn't still be able to access the information in a way that suits your needs at any given moment or any given day. So, yeah, absolutely. I think that accessibility when it comes to design isn't just about disability. It's about being able to access the information however you see fit.

SPEAKER_01: 10:11

Okay, so considering all these misconceptions that we are able to observe, what are some of the misconceptions clients have about the value or practicality of inclusive design and how do you address them?

SPEAKER_00: 10:26

Yeah, that's a twofold question. So the first thing I'm gonna say is um it is not uncommon for us to be talking to a mission-driven brand who are very DEI focused. We say, you definitely want to be inclusive, right? And they're like, yes, yes, yes, absolutely. We all want to be good humans. But when we say, have you thought about your color usage? Have you thought about your brand fonts? Have you thought about having your annual report or your impact report or this latest breach or your website be accessible? And they're like, well, we don't really have the budget for that. And I'm like, well, first of all, that matters. So going back to invisible disability, so the numbers that I've pulled, again, US-based. So if we're if we're gonna stick to the 61 million number, there's 61 million people in the United States with a disability. Overall, that's 26% of the adult population. So how many times have we talked to a client and they're like, well, everyone's our target audience? And we go, no, no, no, no. Like, not everyone's your target audience. Give me your real target audience. But the problem here is that nobody is really taking the accessibility aspect, the number of their target audience that is considered to have a disability, because there's no firm numbers there. You can't pull those numbers from somewhere. So we have to just assume, and this is a very blanket statement, that 26% being our magic number. Okay, so 26% of any target demographic could potentially have a disability. So boil that down. When you think about that, that's one in four. So for every$4 that you're spending on that big marketing campaign, you're lighting a dollar on fire? Like that's really what you're gonna do. So when you when a company comes to me and says, Well, we don't have money to invest in accessible design, I go, Well, time out. Do you have one dollar and four to burn? Are you going to take like your$20,000 project and burn a quarter of it? Because that's essentially what you're doing. And that's a really eye-opening moment for people. They're like, oh, I never really thought about it that way.

SPEAKER_01: 12:34

I can tell you one thing. I've been in situations where those saying, I don't really have the budget, they were disabled themselves, but they are in a disability that doesn't affect them from doing certain activities. But they are no. Uh uh, I have I've been in that situation. So you consider the side of disability that relates with you, but you don't seem to have the empathy for the others.

SPEAKER_00: 13:00

One of my clients, again, we work with the Brain Injury Association of America. They're an amazing organization. They're really working to champion survivor stories when it comes to traumatic brain injury. And we worked with them on an amazing campaign called My Brain Injury Journey. And it was all about a march on DC. It was all about the reenactment or the re-signing of the TBI Act, which is federal protections having to do with the traumatic brain injury when it comes to protections for funding, protections for research. There are a lot more pieces to it. That's not really my area of expertise. But my job here was to make sure that I developed a campaign that not only spoke to the survivors and the target demographic of brain injury association, but also was able to tell a story. And one thing I heard over and over again that really it stuck with me and it's become like one of my ethos is you've seen one brain injury, you've seen one brain injury. Every brain injury is so different. And the more that that sat with me, now we're two years later, and I go, Well, you've seen one disability, but you've seen one disability. You've lived one disability, you've seen one disability. Everyone's journey is so different that one accommodation for one individual may or may not suit someone else, even if it is like the same medical disability. So I comment that when it comes to design, I comment every project with that in mind. So the other part of all of this is it blows my mind how many individuals say they don't have budget. And then I say, Well, what do you want to achieve here? And they're they're like, Well, we'd really like to be more farmable by AI, meaning they would like to show up as a subject matter expert when it comes to using Gemini or other AI models. They want it to show up in search engine, they want to um boost their SEO, they want all these things. And I'm like, Well, what if I could tell you that essentially we could do both? Because it's the same tools. AI is using those same tools that most accessibility um tools or or like barrier uh pieces are using the alt tagging, the H tagging, the um being able to have a hierarchy within the document, being able to access uh tables and things like that with uh with subsequent text. It all functions in this ecosystem that are all intertwined. And I I frequently have to look at clients and say, well, wait a minute, you're you're actually putting farmability above disabilities. And to me, that's insane. Why would you be accommodating of a of a system that isn't human over actual humans? But yeah, I could I could go on an entire rant on that.

SPEAKER_01: 15:46

Noticing that sometimes when they come and say, Oh, I don't have the budget, they are just putting a barrier. Oh, I don't want to do that, when in fact, sometimes it's not about the budget.

SPEAKER_00: 15:55

No, it's about that they think it's gonna cost a million dollars. And really, when you bake in accessibility from the very beginning, the cost implications are very minimal, at least for us. We we think about accessibility right from the very beginning. So as we're developing the design, there's very little back-end things that need to be accomplished at the end, which is where they think the extra money is going.

SPEAKER_02: 16:20

Most of the extra money comes when you try and retrofit it.

SPEAKER_00: 16:23

Oh, absolutely.

SPEAKER_02: 16:25

Bolt-on accessibility is really expensive, right?

SPEAKER_00: 16:27

Um yeah. Not dimensionally doesn't work.

SPEAKER_02: 16:31

Yeah, it doesn't work. You know, the cost of rework is significant. Even if you do bodge it together so that it's kind of working with the assistive tech, you've then got a huge amount of technical debt because every time you have to do an update, you have to do all of that bodging work again. So it it becomes a long-term financial burden to an organization. Um, we actually, colleague and I wrote a piece about how AI is essentially blind and it acts in the same way as a screen reader would. And we know from our own internal work that when you make documents accessible, the results that you get back from AI are much more accurate.

SPEAKER_00: 17:12

Isn't it funny how that works?

SPEAKER_02: 17:14

Yeah, exactly. So we're, you know, we're able to make AI systems more effective by providing accessible content. And I was at an event the other day where there was a great speaker, and she was talking about the fact that actually the reason we have AI tools at all is built upon the data that has been created by people creating assistive technologies and accessible systems. So, you know, the the alt text, right, is the found is foundational for you know image creation tools like Midjourney, right? The you know, it's the it's the the training data. And as an assistive technologist, you know, all of the natural language processing tools that that were part of technologies like speech recognition and and text-to-speech tools that that then form parts of screen readers are now foundational in the the large language models and and so on that we see. So disability-led innovation has has really enabled the technologies that we see today that your clients are wishing for you to engage with. So if you don't do the accessibility work, you're not going to engage with these technologies, and so it's it's reframing it as that investment. Now I fully stand behind you then saying, why are we more prepared to design for a bot than we are for humans, right? And and this is a problem, right? I think this is a real problem uh ethically and just in terms of conceptually as well. Why is it uh that we are much more prepared as businesses and governments and everything else to build infrastructure and pay for programs that are predicated on feeding a machine than engaging with humans? We should be designing technology to serve humans, and the humans should not be serving the technology. We've got it back to front.

SPEAKER_00: 19:11

Yes. And it it kills me when I am now on boarding a new client and we're looking at their current assets, and we might look at their website and see the farmability aspect. We see previous developers using accessibility tools like alt tags and things like that for evil instead of good. We're seeing as much SEO keyword dumping in those fields as possible to just keep wedging that stuff in there. And then the user experience for someone who does have a disability that does need to access this website, all they're getting is garbage. And and it breaks my heart. So this is not a new thing, but we're seeing a new wrapper. We're seeing everybody branding it as, well, I want AI to be able, well, you know, the Googles have been around as long as I've been alive. So, like, this isn't something that's new. It's just the new pretty fancy thing that people want to put a label on. It's up to us as designers, marketing experts, developers, the people doing the work, the people that hold the keys to the car, to be able to say, no, I'm not going to do that. This is why. And really being the stewards of that information. And so many of us don't realize just how dire it it has actually gotten.

SPEAKER_01: 20:28

When you are engaging with customers, how do your core values can help clients to support their design outcomes?

SPEAKER_00: 20:37

Yeah. So, like I said, we work with mostly mission-driven brands. Not to say that they're all nonprofit. We do work with for-profit companies, but we're very selective. We make sure that our clients meet our same ethos or our same core values. A little bit of background about me, I came from the corporate world. I came from a place that was really money-driven and sales-driven. And it really wasn't a happy place for me. Did I care that this company made an extra million? Not really. So when I went out on my own, I was looking for a way to make a difference. And I, this is gonna sound weird, but I sort of equate that to a sleep at night clause. I want to make sure that the work that I am doing and the clients that I am serving allow me to sleep well at night. So not only do our clients have to be doing good things in the world, be making steps to making a better, a better place for someone, but they also have to be partners in it. When we come with this information, I'm not expecting blind compliance. I'm not expecting people to say, well, perfect, you just roll with that. I want people to be curious. I want people to ask questions and challenge. But also a customer that would come to me and and listen to accessibility, claim to be DEI, and then be like, yeah, not this year. I'm not be a client that I want to work with. So ultimately, um, we we really do vibe check everyone that we work with and make sure that our core values align and that we're headed in the same direction. And it's not just placating.

SPEAKER_01: 22:13

You mentioned that came from a corporate and uh corporate world. How do you see many uh corporate leaders saying we're out of TI, we're out of it? And how can that negative influence two things? One is their internal workforce that they were promised, you belong, you need to belong. And then the customers were now, okay, but you would you in the past, you really care about this. Why the sudden shift?

SPEAKER_00: 22:42

Yeah. Um, so I I recently wrote an op-ed for print magazine. I'm sure that we can provide the link for that. It is around this very subject. Um, and and again, I'm speaking strictly from the United States perspective, but in the US, DEI has become borderline a dirty word. We see a lot of our corporate, uh, our our corporate uh companies leaning away from DEI, and like you said, really alienating their customers, alienating the audiences that got them where they are. So, yes, that's that's the uh article. So it really is heartbreaking. I'm gonna say, as a designer and somebody who really does care about DEI, um, this is it's a hard place to be, but also it's a very powerful place to be. We as designers, and we again, as the people that are driving this industry, the people who are very much integrated in the projects and have a say, this is our chance as designers, as marketers, as developers, to say no, we're not going to do that. And here is why, and and take a stand. This is our rallying cry. This is our chance to say that is not the kind of work that we are going to produce. We are not abandoning accessibility, we are not abandoning the DEI aspects, and we are going to double down. And whether that means that we step away from clients that don't share our values, we vote with our dollars, or we do the work and don't tell anybody so that it continues to be accessible despite a change in perspectives. I don't know, but I can tell you like it's heartbreaking, especially in my country where it's become radically uh apparent that this is the direction that we are going. I, as a designer, will not stand for it.

SPEAKER_01: 24:26

What type of advice would you give young professionals who need to, you know, who are passionate about about inclusion, inclusive design, but then they see all these changes happening around them, not just on the aspect of DEI, but also upcoming artificial intelligence and those fake promises that AI is going to fix everything around the session.

SPEAKER_00: 24:51

Yeah, AI is a double-edged sword. Um, I can't tell you how many in the design and marketing community I hear. DEI or I'm sorry, AI is this amazing thing. AI is making my my world better. AI is the next step in the future. And then I have the other camp that's saying AI is coming for my job. I can tell you neither is 100% accurate. AI is a great tool when you know how to use it. AI is not coming for our jobs from the aspect of AI cannot design like a human can. I reference back to when you run an accessibility check, there are still pieces that a computer can't check for you color ratios, read orders. That is something that is inherently human that will never be able to be replaced by a computer because it requires a human touch. Being able to take a marketing campaign and make it accessible to audiences is an inherently human thing because the designer, the developer, the marketing strategist, we all have to understand what that strategy is in order to break it down to a narrative, to a story that then needs to be told multiple different ways from multiple different angles with multiple different tools to ensure that anyone accessing that campaign from any angle get the same story, get the same field from that campaign. That's inherently human. When we talk about students, so something that does break my heart, but gives me hope. I'm seeing so many more students asking questions about DEI. I was just giving a talk in San Francisco with an organization that uh focuses on access to design, like design speeches and design um information. And I had a lot of students there that were asking really forward questions, like, well, how does DEI and how does accessibility feed into VR? And these were questions I can't even answer because WCAG hasn't caught up. So I'm going, well, I would say that the same rules apply, you know, think about things in a in a nonlinear fashion, think about things from multiple different angles, think about ratios of contrast, think about how you're accessing the information. But ultimately, like the technology isn't hasn't caught up yet. The standards haven't caught up. And he was really surprised, but it gave me hope. So as much as I wasn't able to answer his question fully, I was able to see that at least people are asking questions. People are are wanting to bridge that gap, despite the fact that WCAG and other and other uh standards haven't caught up with that latest and greatest technology. I do think that schools need to be integrating accessible design into the curriculum. That is a it's a huge miss. It's been missing for years. There are some universities and some trade schools that are starting to integrate that. I do see that um, I believe it's Harvard. I believe it's Harvard. Uh, I saw an accessibility course which gave me um gave me the warm and fuzzies. But overall, I would say the general design consensus is you learn it on the job. Now, when you end up starting for a company that doesn't necessarily make that a priority or is rolling back their DEI, that's not a great way to start. But if we're looking at this as a whole, I think we all need to agree that accessibility needs to be taught as a fundamental, not an after, an after tag on. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02: 28:14

So I think that and we need to start early. It's not a university, it's a primary school where we need to be encouraging people to understand the topics and the technology, because quite often what you have is you have people that understand disability. And kids at that age aren't really discriminatory, they're quite welcoming, they're they ask questions, but the questions aren't prejudiced, they're out of curiosity, and it's later that we learn these practices and we exclude people through those learned experiences that they come in society and we and we don't teach for it. So the earlier we teach, you know, we start systemically building in inclusive design into the way that we do this.

SPEAKER_00: 28:55

I'd like to stop you there for a second. No, that was beautifully said.

SPEAKER_02: 29:00

Thank you.

SPEAKER_00: 29:01

I'm now adding that to my ethos. I completely agree. I I look at my son, and he is very inclusive of everyone. He's young enough that society hasn't tainted him with bias and you know these misconceptions. And that was beautifully said. I completely agree. The earlier the better, and to be having these bigger conversations about inclusion of everyone, and not everyone is the same, and that's actually a good thing, and this is why this is a great thing, is really important. I love that.

SPEAKER_02: 29:34

We learn to exclude as we go, as we go through life, and and if we teach this at an early age, we have a chance as as a society to reduce that over time. None of this stuff is a quick fix, right? You talked about not knowing about XR accessibility. I can point you to some resources. Oh, that's great. XRaccess.org on is one and w threec. It's never going to be in WordC, but there is a working group.

SPEAKER_00: 30:04

That would be amazing. And there are some certain things that it's not my area of focus.

SPEAKER_02: 30:08

I know, so I'm quite happy. But I mean, but I'm quite happy to share, right? Because this is the thing about accessibility.

SPEAKER_00: 30:13

Knowledge is power.

SPEAKER_02: 30:15

Is the community also wants to share, right? And this is the this is the the really nice thing about the community that we're part of is the that it is one that is collaborative. I think uh you know the yeah, go on then.

SPEAKER_01: 30:31

Do you feel that the community is collaborative? But is the community welcoming to new professionals?

SPEAKER_02: 30:36

Not always.

SPEAKER_00: 30:37

Not always. My experience as a normie has been rather welcoming. I would say it's been more welcoming than the design industry as a woman.

SPEAKER_02: 30:47

Okay. So I mean I think that's that's a that's that's an interesting observation because sometimes we can be a bit spiky, right? We, you know, and people do overcorrect, right?

SPEAKER_00: 30:57

And and so you know, but I think it also comes to the person that's asking the questions. I am here to learn. I am not going to claim to be an expert. What I can tell you is what we have done. I can tell you every single day we're learning something. And if you're not learning, then what's the point? Because obviously you supposedly know everything. So being a curious individual, being someone who really wants to amplify these voices and working for the organizations that I do, it's really important to me to be able to provide the correct information and to be able to supply my clients with strategy to overcome these barriers in a meaningful sort of way. And I think the community, the accessibility community, has seen that I come with good intentions and that I'm able to at least help in some way, whether it's even just support.

SPEAKER_02: 31:48

Yeah, excellent. Time flies when you're having fun. Um I need to thank you, Michelle, for being our guest today. I need to also thank our friends at Amazon for supporting us and helping keep us on air. And we really look forward to sharing this with our audience. Now, the article that you mentioned is uh printmag.com, and the title was When Accessibility Standards Slip Design Steps Up. So people can can find that. I'm not going to read out a long URL with loads of little hypens in it, but uh you can find it right there. And if people want um XR access, it's xraccess.org. So thank you once again. It's been a real pleasure talking with you.

SPEAKER_00: 32:26

It's been amazing. Thank you so much for having me.