The Job Hunt When You Are Blind

One sentence can flip an interview from warm to frozen: “I should tell you I’m visually impaired.” That moment sits at the heart of our conversation with Steve Tyler, Director of Assistive Tech and Transformation at Leonard Cheshire, and Jasmin Ambiong, a blind Filipina disability inclusion and accessibility advocate and Billion Strong ambassador joining us from Wellington, New Zealand.

We get specific about what disability employment really looks like for blind job seekers: Steve applying for 108 jobs before landing his first role, the “sharp intake of breath” after disclosure, and why even highly accomplished blind professionals can feel their careers are one redundancy away from disappearing. Jasmin shares what it feels like to hear “we’re not ready to employ a blind person,” why disabled candidates often have to be exceptional just to be considered, and how remote work can become a survival tactic when in-person hiring is built on fear rather than skills.

We also zoom out to the systems shaping accessible hiring and inclusive workplaces: disability organisations that still do not hire disabled staff, and the double-edged sword of AI in recruitment. From photo requests in application flows to algorithmic screening that mirrors cultural bias, we talk about how automation can either expand reasonable accommodations or amplify discrimination at speed.

If you care about accessibility, disability inclusion, assistive technology, and fair hiring, listen through and share it with someone who hires. Subscribe to AXSChat, leave a review, and tell us your take: when should candidates disclose disability, and what should employers change first?

Transcript

Neil Milliken (00:00)
Hello, and welcome to AXSChat. I am delighted that we're joined by Steve Tyler, who's a regular on AXSChat, leader of Billion Strong, and also Jasmin Ambiong. Now, Jasmin is also, let me get this right, an ambassador for Billion Strong and has been engaged with the AXSChat community when we were doing lots of stuff on social media for more years than I care to remember. But this is the first time we've had you on the show, Jasmin, and you're joining us from the Philippines. So welcome. I appreciate you staying up late tonight. No Antonio today because we've had to change the times around. But you've got Deborah and me, so what more could you want? And Steve, so and Jasmin. So welcome to AXSChat. And Jasmin, can you introduce yourself a bit first? Because I hope that if our listeners have listened to a few episodes, they might know who Steve is, but he can introduce himself afterwards.

Jasmin Ambiong (00:52)
Yeah, thank you, Neil. this is actually kind of like a full circle moment for me because I've worked I've had the privilege of working alongside Deborah and this is a show that I deeply appreciate. That's why like it really means a lot to me. And I'm Jasmin Ambiong. I'm a blind Filipina disability inclusion and accessibility advocate and I'm based I'm currently based in Wellington, New Zealand and my journey started in the Philippines and it has taken me across the world through Japan for my Duskan leadership training and eventually to New Zealand like my current home at the moment. And I have been up for over seven years I've worked with global organizations to for for like accessibility and meaningful inclusion for persons with disabilities. I co founded Billion Strong and inclusion isn't just my profession, it's personal. And as a blind woman who has been to job markets like who has into job markets in two different countries, I know firsthand how it feels like when doors are open and when they're not. So I really am excited that I am here with you today.

Neil Milliken (02:21)
Thank you. Apologies for getting the location wrong. So Steve, briefly introduce yourself.

Steve Tyler (02:27)
Steve Tyler, I I'm working with Deborah and Jasmin and a whole host of other people on Billy and Strong. I also look after I'm Director of Assistive Tech and Transformation at Leonard Cheshire, which is a UK disability organisation. Jasmin didn't say it herself. just then, but I should tell you she's not feeling very well. So you have to be gentle with her and bit bit fluey symptoms. So but she's plowing on regardless.

Debra Ruh (03:01)
That's just like Jasmin.

Jasmin Ambiong (03:04)
Thanks for that, Steve.

Debra Ruh (03:05)
Neil, can I just come in real quick and say the reason why I invited Steve and Jasmin to access chat was because we were actually having a conversation at Bullion Strong and we were talking about how sometimes discouraging it is for a person to be blind and be looking for a position. And it it just it I I they were telling me they were they started trading stories. And Isla, I said, guys, you have got to come on and talk about this because I think so many people don't really understand the reality of looking for a job if you happen to be blind or have other disabilities. And I just thought it would be a really powerful thing to really hear their stories. So thank y'all for being on. Back over to you, Neil.

Neil Milliken (03:48)
No, thank you. And I'm mindful of a from our mutual friend, I'm sure she is a mutual friend, Susan Scott Parker, saying about the assumptions that people make about what jobs people can do. you know, and when it comes to blindness, it's basket weaving and piano tuning. And there's a whole lot more that people can do with technology. But people still underestimate the capabilities of the entire disability community. But in particular, They make assumptions about people who have low or no vision. So, Stephen Jasmin, I don't know which of you wants to go first.

Steve Tyler (04:20)
I'm happy to go.

Neil Milliken (04:21)
Go on, Steve.

Steve Tyler (04:21)
I think it it's a it's a on one level it's a complicated subject. Lots lots goes on, I in my in my experience, in your own head and and in other people's. So you're absolutely right, Neil. I think you end up in a situation where you realise that so in my case I went to a special school, I went to university, I had quite a lot of support at university. They were very understanding. I I know I was very, very lucky about that. and I got I happened to hit on a university that was half interested and wanted to make it all work, more more than half interested. But then when you get into the job of work or sorry, into the job of trying to obtain work, you realise that it's not a friendly place. And if I just step back for a second from my own experience, w we know the numbers. We we the numbers are appalling in terms of the unemployment rate in the blindness community and more broadly in the disability community. We also know that there's a bit of a mixed message from society around that on the one level, certainly in the UK and I think elsewhere. People with disabilities are quite often seen as, you know, well it's questionable. How disabled do you have to be in order to be viewed as genuinely deserving of benefits or employment benefit or employment support or whatever. So on the one level you've got this kind of issue where you you really ought to be working. Everybody ought to be working on the one on earth's your problem. On another there is a lot of fear a and misunderstanding about in this case blindness but lots of disabilities. I applied for a hundred and eight jobs in total before I got my first one. and because of the the I mean I b as a visually impaired person, I couldn't do the kind of stuff that everybody else around me could do. Earn a bit of money working behind a bar or I don't know, doing deliveries. I did do other things, but not for money. I traded other things. So I was particularly good at taking notes, for example, and this was in the very early days of the first braille note taking devices. I'm I'm very fast at real writing and reading and all the rest of it, which meant I could pretty much take verbatim notes of lectures. I learned that probably wasn't a good idea actually as time went on. However, people that didn't attend found them very useful. So I and in return, you know, I got readers and people like that when I was at university. But as I got into work, really, really tricky. and even now, I rather than focusing on myself, frankly, you may or may not have heard Carrie O'Donague last week. Carrie O'Donachu, well known visually impaired blind person. I went to school with Gary, and he is BBC chief North American correspondent. he was invited onto Desert Island Disc. which is a a a very well known if you follow the BBC programme, it's an interview of your life story. Focusing on your life story and all the rest of it. and desert island disc refers to the music that you you may or may not take with you to the desert island which you're gonna be left on. one of the things he said at the end of the interview was Yeah, y you know, to the qu there were lots of questions about, you know, what a wonderful kind of and interesting you've done so much in broadcasting and you've delivered so much. and you've had, you know, you y you're one of the first to interview Donald Trump, and indeed any president over the past twenty years. You know, the accolades kept coming, quite rightly. and Gary made a point of saying, Yeah, I'm not being tricky about this. I'm just letting you know that w w when I if if for whatever reason I was to lose my job here, I don't think I'd get another one. And he articulated a very recognizable story, which is Yes, I was well trained, yes, I had a phenomenal education, all of which was down to luck, more than judgment, parental support. lots and lots of things happened from a medical point of view, etc. Being in the right place at the right time. But how did he get his job? Well, a big collection of coincidences and supportive people. I feel very, very similar to that.

Neil Milliken (09:10)
Yeah, so I also know Gary, used to support Gary when I was doing AT support for the BBC.

Steve Tyler (09:17)
Of course you did. I that's right, I remember that now.

Neil Milliken (09:20)
And Gary's a great guy, and what people don't know is not only is he a great correspondent, but he does all of his rough video edits himself, right? And people's minds are blown by this because, like, you're blind. How are you editing video? Well, you know, actually, most of the video is us speaking, and there were something like 70,000 lines of JavaScripts behind the editing software. So, yeah, Gary's a fantastic individual. Don't go drinking with him if you want to survive the next day. But he's also, as you say, an example of someone that's had a whole bunch of support and luck and circumstance fall into place to enable him to have that career. And for the vast majority of people, you don't have the luck or the support or the circumstances. So that makes it.

Debra Ruh (09:54)
So

Neil Milliken (10:16)
you know, exceptionally difficult. And there are very few organizations that invest the kind of money that a national broadcaster could invest in supporting, adapting, you know, very specialist software.

Steve Tyler (10:31)
And I would say, Neil, that I think as a blind person as a person with a disability more generally, several just obvious but maybe worth pointing out observations. F firstly you have to work harder. You just in order to hold your own, in order to get past albeit wonderful accessibility systems that exist and the world of technology has brought about lots of accessibility that that you know, compared to what it might have been twenty, twenty five years ago. lots of challenges too, by the way, but there we are. but, you know, you've got to you've got to operate in an environment that often was never built to be accessible. And secondly, I think for a lot of us, and I won't speak for Jasmin, she can tell you her own story. But I think for many people, it become work becomes part of the the definition of yourself because it's a way of contributing. It's a way of feeling that you there is validity. and I know that sounds very I don't know, deep and meaningful and emotive, but I do think that and I I certainly feel it myself that where I've gone through my fair share of threats to my career and redundancy and all kinds of things like that. And I know everybody feels awful during those situations. But as a blind person, your options are very, very, very limited. And I've often said, you know, if I could see, I could do stuff. You know, I could become a taxi driver. I could go and work behind a hill at the local shop. I could I could do any number of things just to make some money, just to make it work. But if you if if you can't do that if those options are not there, then it you really are you know in a tricky place.

Debra Ruh (12:43)
That's true. I want to bring in Jasmin here, but I j I want to tell a little story first. And I have a a friend that I'm not gonna name them their name, but they're in the United States and they are so talented and they worked for some really large brands. This person also, this woman, happens to be she is in a power wheelchair and she has pretty significant disabilities. More importantly, the woman is brilliant. But she was leaving the her one very large position that she was in and she was a chief diversity officer for a large brand and she sent her resume around and multiple brands immediately contacted her and said we're very interested. One actually flew her to California to meet with them. As she came into the interview, you know, using her wheelchair because she uses a wheelchair, they told her the job was filled. This was a very high level. position and they told her the job was filled. And it's what the realities of what happens to people with more severe disabilities in our society, it's really, really chilling. And I think we all don't really understand it. And when we were talking, even talking to Jasmin as Jasmin has looked for positions, being a very, very talented woman with so much to offer, it it just it just seems like it hurts your heart more and more and more. And so Jasmin, I was wondering if maybe you could talk a little bit about some of your experiences finding a job. And by the way, thank you for being with me for so long, Billion Strong. And I've always had such funding issues. I wish, you know, it someday that will change. But it it this it's just chilling what people have to go through. So could you tell us of maybe a little of your experience there?

Jasmin Ambiong (14:24)
Yeah, before I share my experience, I I just wanna comment on on on what Steve was talking about and Neil because it's funny how like it's ironic how people would judge us based on our disability. Like like you're automatically judged by what you can do. Like you have a disability, probably you cannot do this or that, maybe this job is I don't know, maybe you're not capable. But in reality, just like what Steve mentioned, we have to work harder or twice harder. You have to be very good to be noticed, to be where you are right now. I cannot like say for example, a person who doesn't have disability can just be ordinary. I I'm gonna do what I can and I can find a job. But for me, for people like us, we have to do more. We have to do extra effort, be more innovative and and then we're still judged for it. At the end of the day, we still don't get it. And at the end of the day we're still yeah, we still don't have employment. And with my experience I I was the same with Steve. I I was I I attended a very supportive university and my professors they would of often tell me, like, I'm sure you're gonna find a job once you graduated and then they would tell me, Where do you wanna work? And of course I had hope because my grades are good and maybe I could talk to them, I could convince them and when when it's time for for for the application when when I started interviewing for jobs I was turned away and sometimes you pass the interview and then they tell you I'm sorry we're not yet ready to employ a blind person or they'd be like we actually don't know how to handle you and I was like well you just let me you know just just give me a reasonable accommodation and I'll be here to to guide you on what to do. But still they are not open to it. And sometimes you have to choose your battles because it doesn't matter if you scream to the void, if people are not yet ready to listen to you. It's it's it's it's I don't know, it's it's it's useless. You're just going to spend your energy and in the end you'll You'll be left with nothing. So you have to choose your battles. You Yeah. You have

Steve Tyler (17:03)
used to experiment when I very first started applying for jobs because I very quickly realized that you know they weren't coming. Th there would seem to be positivity that would see and I I started experimenting about when to tell them that I couldn't see. Do you tell them right up front and be really honest, which was my preferred way of doing things. Or do you wait I'll never forget there was an over was one particular day there was a job that actually was a journalism job. and it was with a newspaper in London and they were really impressed with my and I w and I had this I was on the call and I thought, okay, this is all very quickly we'd moved from me kind of desperately trying to sell myself, them entirely accepting me. and it was a Thursday afternoon and they said, Look, can you be we'd love to see you. Would Tuesday work? Tuesday in London, of course, at that time I was based in Scotland. But yeah, I'll do whatever. Yep. Tuesday is good. What time? two PM. Two PM on Tuesday. And that was that. And just before I said, not that it would make an interest. I just feel that I need to tell you at this point, and we can talk about this, you know, when I get there, around the kind of ways of of of dealing with it. But I should tell you that I'm visually impaired. I didn't say blind. I thought maybe visually impaired would be easier to manage. And there was a sort of sharp intake of breath and quite a long silence and then nothing. right. Yeah. Not really sure, to be honest, that this would and very quickly the the interview went went cold. and I had enough experience to know that this was a very, very regular thing. And that's why, just out of interest, we do what we do at Billion Strong or what we're setting out to do, which is, you know, we're in twenty twenty six. There's a report recently published in the UK a year ago that talks about people with disabilities and in education and employment. So it talks about educational attainment, the disability community, and employment prospects and employment take up. And it starts with the immortal phrase, there has been no change in either of these two measures for six decades. And that is a disgrace on every level. Today we have the the the trouble is The organizations that currently represent people with disabilities tend not to go in for longer-term strategic thinking. And I'm afraid this is a longer-term strategic thinking issue. This is about changing culture, getting people to understand difference, and making sure that the genuine fear that people feel, because it's very real, recruiters. ordinary people, in other words, feel fearful about disability. They really don't know what they're letting themselves in for. They tell us that. and they don't know how to deal with it. They don't have time to engage with this stuff. And frankly, it's all too difficult. And it would be just so much easier if this wasn't happening. And final point we used to have in the UK there's a disability index. I remember being really shocked around really shocked around that that blindness had surpassed on the fear index had surpassed cancer as being the most feared condition.

Neil Milliken (20:37)
Wow, so that's shocking. I'm equally disgusted frankly by the 60 years of no progress given the technological progress and the wide variety of technologies that can now support people with disabilities to do things that in the world of employment they couldn't possibly have done before. If anything, we've gone backwards because the capability of including people in employment is greater. And to not move means that the attitudinal barriers have actually pushed things backwards. So that's very disheartening. But equally, I understand exactly what you're saying about people's fear of disability, their lack of knowledge and everything else. And No Scope did a great campaign a few years back about end the awkward. which I think was really good in terms of challenging people's fears. One of the things that I know from working in a global role for the last 15 years or so is that somewhere in the world, you're going to offend someone, even if you're following all of the best practices and the language within your own country. So, you have to kind of get over your fear of offending someone and in good faith and kind of accept that, you know, you're never going to make everyone happy all of the time. Like you, Steve, I applied for an awful lot of jobs when I left. The thing that wasn't like you was I had the ability to work on building sites and earn a few quid. But I applied for 400 jobs before I landed one. So, it's really tough and but a considerable amount of time, you have to really think as to whether or not you're going to talk about your disability before you apply for a job if you have a hidden disability like mine where I can mask and I can disguise it. Obviously, it's not the same for you because it becomes blatantly obvious the moment you turn up at the interview what your disability is. So, those are different things. And we see amongst the neurodivergent community, a lot of people hiding their neurodivergence, excelling in entry level or creative jobs, and then the pain hits when they get promoted into managerial roles and stuff like that, because suddenly they're not doing the creative thing. So, yeah, go on, please.

Jasmin Ambiong (22:59)
No, I was just gonna say, and it can be exhausting hiding your disability too, because what happened to me was so when I applied for lots and lots of job like office jobs in person and then I couldn't find one, I had to go home and turn to remote jobs so I could hide my disability. So I became a tutor, a transcriptionist or a virtual assistant and I've always had to hide my disability as long as I can. Like there are times like I've been working for them for months and they didn't know that I was blind and they only found out because I had no choice but to tell them. And a part of me just felt so exhausted. Like I feel like I wasn't being true to myself and I feel like I I don't know, it's just tiring. Not just the work but but the the the fact that you have to hide that part of you and not be truthful just to to not lose your income.

Steve Tyler (23:57)
Absolutely.

Neil Milliken (23:58)
So, Jessamine, I'm really curious, right? So, what happens when you've been successfully delivering services and then you reveal that you're blind? Is there a uniformity of reaction or do lots of people react in different ways?

Jasmin Ambiong (24:10)
for me, I because my motto is like I'm gonna let them know that I'm blind once once I prove to them that that I could do what they asked me to do. So the response was okay, they they they were okay with it. They weren't receptive to it, but the moment that I had to ask for like more support, that's when the problem comes.

Neil Milliken (24:31)
Go on Steve, you are about to comment.

Steve Tyler (24:33)
I I i in my case, because of the role I ended up doing and and the w area of work, etcetera. I'm very conscious that if you were to look at the C V and and and people it's r I can't tell you the despondency I feel when this happens. You look at they look at the C V and even when I look at the C V I kind of think, Wow, it's pretty damn good that. And what I mean when I th when I think that is I've had some really great experience. I've had some brilliant opportunities and have been able to make the most of it. And you see that in and and they see that until they recognise the blindness thing. And all of a sudden, I mean the it is a palpable change in attitude. And I think it's the most disillusioning thing. So then you go back, do the traditional thing, go back for the feedback. And they say, Well, I to be honest with you, yeah, yeah, there's there isn't really anything I could say about you know how I think you know, there are other people that were you know, yeah, perhaps had more experience than you did, and they they kind of waffle on about and you know There comes a point when you don't want to be paranoid, because it could be. I'm fully I fully recognize that there will be people, many people, with a lot more experience than I have, in lots and lots of different ways. But there comes a point when there have been so many occasions when those words are said, but actually no, there is no negative feedback. It's just luck at the draw, really sorry. Better luck next time. Right. And you realise that actually next time there won't be better luck. It'll be just the same kind of luck.

Debra Ruh (26:21)
I want to come in here real quick too, because you know, one thing that you think is like, well, you know, all right, well, the disability the we have a gigantic disability infrastructure all over the world. So why don't we hire ourselves in the disability community? But the reality is we don't, you know, we we d recently had a very high profile blind organization that once again hired somebody that was you know, was not blind and doesn't have any experience, but that is just so common. And if you talk to people with disabilities who desperately want jobs, they don't want to work in the disability field because they know they'll be even more invisible. And so it it's really discouraging when I talk to different disability communities, I mean organizations, and I ask them questions. I had one organization was saying, these corporations are so mean, Deborah. They get we give them our cards and we're like, I want you to hire these people. And then when we get back to our office, they won't even return our phone calls. And so I was like, just out of curious curiosity, how many people have you hired in this disability organization I was talking to? And it was zero. They had zero people with disabilities working for them. And so something is majorly wrong, but now we have AI, and AI. I I think we can get to the future where we can say, I don't even have to tell you I have a disability, whether I'm blind, deaf, or whatever, because the technology should be there. Why is the technology work not working for more human beings?

Steve Tyler (27:51)
I'll make this really short one one very quick comment on that, Deborah. I was experimenting the other day and I've noticed that on LinkedIn it's down to the recruiter. Recruit recruiter has a lot of flexibility about what they do. But there were questions. so I went through the process just to examine what's going on around recruitment. For example, in one particular case it said, Okay, give us your age, upload a photograph. Why? Why why would you want that at the recruitment stage? There are lots as soon as I saw that, I started thinking what is going on there? does that bear any relevance around you know what are they looking for? but it's certainly not part of the and then the weightings that AI we know that there's been a lot of research recently where AI currently will wait in particular ways. And of course AI currently is reflecting cultural reality.

Neil Milliken (28:51)
Yeah, so we know that AI-powered recruiting systems have all of the systemic biases built in. and AI is a hot topic on everybody's lips at the moment, but especially on Access Chat because we know that both has the power to create new affordances for people with disabilities, but also amplify and speed up the discriminatory barriers as well. It's not an either or. It's both things are happening simultaneously. We've reached the end of our time. I know there would be a lot more that we could cover here, so it falls to me to thank both you, Steve, and Jasmin, and of course, Deborah, and our friends at Amazon for sponsoring us and keeping us on air. And hopefully, you'll subscribe to AXSChat. It always helps if people share the materials and the topics that we cover, and I look forward to continuing this conversation with you both.

Steve Tyler (29:48)
Yes.

Jasmin Ambiong (29:48)
Thanks for having us.