If Inclusion Depends On Your Boss, Is It Inclusion

A clunky accommodations process can undo years of diversity work in a single bad moment. Neil Milliken sits down with disability inclusion consultant Deb Dagit to get specific about what actually helps employees with disabilities thrive at work and what quietly blocks them, even inside well-meaning companies. Deb shares her lived experience with apparent and non-apparent disabilities, and the practical realities of mobility devices, hearing aids, and a service dog, not as inspiration but as everyday context employers need to understand. 

We trace Deb’s journey from early corporate discrimination to founding a nonprofit focused on disability employment, to lobbying for the Americans with Disabilities Act and witnessing the ADA signing in 1990. From there, she returns to the corporate world and becomes one of the early Chief Diversity Officers, giving her a rare long-view on how workplace accessibility, disability rights, and organisational culture move forward. We also talk about why disability inclusion is increasingly recognised as a major market opportunity, and how assistive technology and digital accessibility can expand independence and productivity across neurodiversity, hearing, vision, and mobility needs. 

Then we get practical: centralised accommodations budgets, a supported assistive technology catalogue, and the reality that HR can create friction while managers sometimes cut through it. That creates a hard question we don’t dodge: if your access to “reasonable adjustments” depends on whether you got a good boss, is that equity? We close with a grounded look at AI accessibility, why it may be the biggest assistive-tech leap in 25 years for executive function and cognitive accessibility, and why human oversight is non-negotiable to reduce bias and harm. 

If you care about disability inclusion, workplace accommodations, accessibility, and better management, subscribe, share this conversation with a colleague, and leave a review with one change you want to see in your own organisation.

Transcript

Neil Milliken (00:00)
Hello and welcome to AXSChat It's a slightly different format today because there's no Antonio because he's on holiday with his family taking a well-deserved break. And no Deborah either because Deborah's taken a tumble climbing in the mountains. So she's not feeling so well. So wishing Deborah well, hope she gets better soon. But I am joined with another Deb. And this time it's Deb Dagit. So Deb is someone that I first encountered many moons ago when she came along

to participate in a GAAD event that I was running alongside someone that was then running diversity partnerships for Twitter, Candi Castleberry. So, welcome to the show, welcome to AXSChat it's a pleasure to have you here. You're a diversity and inclusion consultant working in multiple different spaces and your focus is on disability, so we'll get a bit more about that from you.

in a moment, but so thank you and welcome.

Deb Dagit (00:54)
Thank you very much, Neil. it's always fun hanging out with you. Hopefully we'll meet in person one day. It's all been virtual so far. but yeah, I'm glad to be here. And as far as a a visual or verbal introduction, as far as my connection to the community, I'm a white female, my pronouns are she and her, and I identify as living with both a parent and non-apparent disability. So

If we were hanging out in person, the audience would notice that I'm a little person at four feet tall. I usually use a mobility scooter or a manual wheelchair when I leave my apartment. I wear hearing aids and I have a service dog for PTSD. And I've been involved in the disability community for a really long time, but we'll probably get into that later.

Neil Milliken (01:44)
Yeah, so I'm with you on the non-apparent disabilities. And maybe I have a fashion disability today. So my shirt is particularly loud today. It's a sort floral design with like a chairman male collar. And I'm looking slightly warm because it's warm here in the UK. So I'm a warm, white, middle-aged, bearded man.

pictures behind me sweating it out because we really should have fixed the aircon unit behind me. So I'm really delighted that we are hanging out and yes, fingers crossed, one day we'll actually get to meet in person and you'll see that I'm quite tall. But aside from that, yes, you've been working in this space for a very long time. Not everybody that...

has a disability, wants to work in the diversity space, and I know that you worked in large corporations as well, which again, not everybody wants to work in large corporations, so maybe you can tell us a bit about your journey in this space and how you deal with that kind of complexity of large and complex, I wouldn't say dysfunctional organisations.

but they have their own quirks.

Deb Dagit (03:00)
They sure they sure do. so I started out in the corporate sector right out of college and experienced very blatant, you know, discrimination that I won't get into, but it prompted me to found a nonprofit organization out in California placing people with disabilities into jobs. And at the time the ADA was on Capitol Hill, my congressman was a key co-sponsor.

ADA being Americans with Disabilities Act, and I ended up lobbying heavily for it at his request. When it passed, I was there at the signing. And how I got back in the corporate world was kind of divine intervention. there were 3,000 of us on the South lawn of, the White House sweltering on July 26, 1990, as George Bush Sr.

signed that bill and after he finished passing the ceremonial pens around, he came down off the platform and the Secret Service was clearly wanting him to hightail it back into the White House because of the security risk with all of us there and all of our metal glory as a disabled community. but he indicated he wanted to shake someone's hand and he made a bee line for me, which was

a bit of shock and awe on my part, since I played this big of a role, very small role in the ADA, but and there were people behind me that had been magnificent players. but anyway he shook my hand and then he went back into the White House and he just said, Congratulations, young lady. At that time I was young. And I said, thank you, Mr. President, because what else do you say?

now in retrospect, it probably was just the Secret Service saying, okay, if you gotta shake somebody's hand, that four foot tall woman with the cane looks safe enough. but I took it as a divine intervention that maybe I should put my big girl pants on and go back into the corporate world. So that's how I got my first diversity gig initially as a contractor for Sun Microsystems to help them compile.

With the new law. And because that was easy peasy, and they were doing diversity stuff that was just getting started. I even though I was a contractor back then, I got away with doing the full Monty of diversity work. And the CEO, who was the same age as me, quite young, decided instead of firing me to hire me. So I became one of the first.

Maybe about a dozen chief diversity officers in the US.

Neil Milliken (05:44)
Well, it's a fantastic story and it's something that got bought by Oracle, if I remember correctly.

Yeah, so I think, where was I in 1990?

I was beginning, I think my

Yes, my final year of my A levels, are your sort of the final year of senior school.

Deb Dagit (06:10)
Uh-huh. High school, yes.

Neil Milliken (06:13)
yes, yes. And so you've got a few years more experience than I have under your belt. What do you, obviously there have been some.

recent changes in attitudes towards diversity and inclusion in the US, but obviously between the present and going backwards to 1990, a lot has also changed. What are some of the things that you have witnessed and also what are some of the things that you would celebrate about the progress that's been made during that intervening period?

Deb Dagit (06:52)
Yeah, it it it honestly came about really slowly the time that I was in the corporate world, which after Sun and another tech company and a big pharmaceutical company was about a total of twenty two years. It was painfully slow. but since I've started doing the disability inclusion work

pretty much close to full time as opposed to as a part of my broader diversity job. What I would say more recently is there's recognition that it's an important market. And therefore really thinking through with some of some really big brands across global sectors. how do we capture this market?

which is not only very large but includes family members and friends and is very brand loyal. There's the advent of AI, and lots of tech that makes it easier to be more productive, more independent and to offset some of the challenges.

That we can face, whether that's based on neurodiversity, physical hearing, or visual types of things. unfortunately, one thing that remains stubbornly problematic in all but a handful of companies is the accommodations process is just a real headache. in most companies, whether they do it themselves or hire a third party.

way too much paperwork, just not a respectful, easy to use process at all. And because that's table stakes, even for the companies who I applaud as creating inclusive spaces for their candidates and their customers and making some really cool tech that we all benefit from.

that one element remains stubbornly problematic.

Neil Milliken (08:53)
Yeah, this is an area that I know pretty well, have done a lot of this work over the years, both for my previous employer and for their customers. And I think that there's multiple elements. There's the sort of, as you say, the painful paperwork piece of people coming forwards and going through a process of having

adjustments or accommodations approved and then there's also the piece of delivery and support and everything else. so some of the things that I think have really helped organizations do it well have been centralized budgets, Taking away the decision from the line manager and making it much easier for them to say yes or not even have to be involved in.

quite a lot of cases, know, speeds the thing up, gives it a bit more dignity, allows for greater flexibility and so on and so forth. And I think that that's a best practice. I'd like to see more organizations take up because it's surprising how many still don't have that. And if you think about the pressure that most middle managers are under to look at their budgets and to

manage those budgets appropriately because the margins are very thin at an individual team level. You think of big companies, you think of these enormous profit figures, but each individual team has their own budget and that's usually pretty tight. And

Deb Dagit (10:22)
Right.

Neil Milliken (10:23)
if someone comes along and suddenly asks for $3,000 or pounds worth of coaching and so on, and you're

budget for the year for all of your training for a team of 20s, maybe only 20,000. That's going to give you pause for thought right now. You need to do it. And that's why taking that decision making process away from people is really important. I think some of the other things that really help is

having an approach where there is a standardized catalog of assistive tech. I've seen companies with amazing goodwill and wishing to do great things just allow on the sort of, we've talked about the constraints, but when people just let loose as well, that creates chaos because then it becomes really hard to support.

the technology that the individuals have. So I think that then having a really good, well looked after assistive tech catalog that works well with the IT of that company is also a key part in that sort of the life cycle of the adjustments because you can talk about the entry points, right? And most people get stuck at the entry point and don't get beyond that. But if you solve the entry point,

you then need to solve the kind of service that people are getting long term and look at renewals and look at whether stuff is appropriate because, you know, as people's careers change, they have job role changes, tech changes. yeah, it's a, think, but it's just a very small number of companies that have this nailed.

Deb Dagit (12:06)
I would agree with you, Neil. And I do agree, a budget that is separate from a local department or functional budget is super important. the tech that is already aligned to what's going to work well. But interestingly, over the years I've done dozens and dozens of focus groups and surveys of employees with disabilities on the subject. And interestingly.

And maybe surprisingly for your audience is that managers are often a much better source of getting an accommodation in a way that the person feels comfortable. unf unfortunately, and this is not popular to say out loud, having been an HR professional my whole career, but HR is often where the barriers arise or where

overly complicating things and not letting the person with a disability be in the driver's seat around what will work for them. I've had the most bizarre conversations with HR saying for instance that when a person who's blind is going to a business meeting, no, they can't

bring a cited guide that they choose, they need to hire a visiting nurse they've never met at the location of the conference. I've run into all kinds of and and unfortunately and ironically often the person in charge of the disability inclusion work inside the company who

if they're doing it right is someone with lived experience that they can add. Avon. so th if they themselves are struggling with getting the accommodations that they need, then you know, it makes it pretty hard for them

Neil Milliken (14:03)
you

Deb Dagit (14:04)
to be able to do their job. And if they're doing battle with HR.

inside the company to get the most basic accommodations. that was true throughout my career. I was a vice president. I was only two levels below the CEO in my last company and the one before. And when I needed to travel with a personal care assistant to help with travel, that became a big deal. so I

Neil Milliken (14:35)
Yeah.

I can relate.

Deb Dagit (14:37)
And

and on the opposite extreme, I had the most ridiculous, hilarious experiences on my first day of employment where there'd be when I at my last pharmaceutical company, my first day there was the head of benefits, a nurse, an MD, the head of facilities, and the head of security in my office all s asking me what I needed.

and when I said a footstool would be great, other than that, it's too early. I need more information about my job, they really felt like I was letting them down. I was supposed to come with a list. and one of the first things I did was explain that if you're hiring somebody with a disability, here's the kind of information they're going to need if you want them to answer that question.

question, how much travel's required, to what locations, what kind of administrative support do I have? How do I get my travel accommodations met? And so, you know, you can't expect that someone who's only been told you what your deliverables are is going to know what accommodations they need.

Neil Milliken (15:55)
Yeah, and I think that's fair. And I was laughing a little bit internally because I have seen some of the challenges of the HR bureaucratic processes myself, even though I also worked in HR for a long time within my organization. For example, I had someone in my team that was in an international role.

but the way that stuff is structured in France is very particular. And they would provide travel support and someone to travel with this person, but only to the border. They wouldn't support international travel, even though the role was an international role. So that ended up coming out of my budget rather than...

from the mission handicappers, they're called in France. So that was interesting. And I think that you went back to the flexibility of individual managers. And I think that frequently a good manager is going to give their employee the flexibility that they need because quite often the reasonable adjustments or accommodations on equipment, on expensive pieces of software, it's...

flexibility changes to working practices, changes to hours, the ability to do things in different ways. And the feedback from a lot of people is that a good manager is the key to happiness at work. But the problem that comes on the flip side of that is that that's not an equitable way to approach

ensuring that all of your employees have that because it's an unfortunate fact that not all managers are as good as each other. And so if you're lucky, you get a good one. And if you're less lucky, you might be denied the things that you need to be able to succeed at work, which is where I think you and I are really interested in building that systemic capability.

Deb Dagit (17:57)
Absolutely. Yeah. In fact, because my job was so broad, and I would hear that from women, from people in the LGBTQ community, from people from different ethnic ethnicities, your experience as an employee is manager dependent, and people would make career decisions by following a manager.

That gave them the support they needed, whether that was flexibility or the kind of assignments that were well suited to their passions and skills. And so systemically manager training is critical. And I was fortunate that one of my mentors, who unfortunately we recently lost this past spring, was Ted Childs, the chief diversity officer for IBM.

And he was a huge champion for all forms of diversity, but really leaned into the disability inclusion and accessibility work. And one of the things he did that he invited me to that was really cool is any manager that was hired or got promoted at what IBM called Big Blue had to go through a training that was mandatory and he had them for two

three hour sessions of thou shalt that was unforgettable, using stories and consequences and carrots and you know, explaining what all the resources were that they could avail themselves of. And unfortunately, you know, n not enough companies make that kind of investment in their manager training to help them with

skills like empathy and self awareness, in addition to all the good things around what it means to be a good project manager, change agent, deal with managing up, down and across, etc. But you know, I think we're starting to come back around, you know, what's old is new again, to the fact that managers do need that kind of supportive training. And most

Not all, but most want to do the right thing and cut through the red tape. So I like working on that. And that's why as an original gangster, I have t-shirts that say OG. that is why I'm still working and doing the work is doing that training either live myself or helping to build it, in in the form of e-learnings and and other things.

Neil Milliken (20:38)
Yeah, I definitely agree that we can't expect managers to have this, learn this stuff through osmosis. We need to be able to support managers to understand what's available for them to be able to support their employees. often, you know,

in large organizations.

It's only a certain strata of managers that get training. And really, it needs to start when you first go into management. I think that I remember transitioning from a job where I was an individual contributor and an expert into managing people. And it's very, very different. And firstly, you think, well,

why have I done nothing all day? And

Deb Dagit (21:24)
Yeah.

Neil Milliken (21:26)
it's like, surely I should have done something. And then also, it's actually recognizing that actually what you should be doing is helping the people that work for you and with you be successful. And that requires different tool sets and skill sets and so on. So I've been ...

fascinated by how to manage better for a long time. It's one of the reasons why I did an MBA. And also be able to, as you say, manage upwards, downwards, sideways, et cetera, and be able to communicate in the language and terminology that people in different parts of an organization or even in different organizations understand. Because I think that when

you're passionate about a topic which I know you and I both are, we're both really passionate about disability inclusion and access and equity. It's quite easy to get on the soapbox and preach at people and because we know that this is something that is right and it's good but finding a way to have that conversation where ...

we bring people in with us rather than push. It's a pull conversation. I think it's an art that has to be learned and it took me a while. I have to say I wasn't great at it and it's something that you learn over time.

Deb Dagit (22:47)
I I agree. I've had the opportunity to manage large budgets and staffs. And while I don't think many of us on the planet appreciate giving someone a performance appraisal or having to implement a reduction in force, there is so much value in coaching and mentoring people and to help them find

their why, help them be successful, help them make it work with their lives outside of work. one of the funny ways I saw a CEO, the my first CEO that I worked for at Sun, try to get people to focus on management was he implemented what he called the rule of eleven.

And he flattened the organization and said that every manager had to have eleven direct reports. And when he explained why, he said, because then you won't have time to do anything but all the things I'm telling you you need to do with each of those eleven people. And so we had a lot of training that we offered. We had some really good organizational development gurus and

what's really interesting is almost all of his direct reports ended up becoming CEOs at other companies. not and he wasn't the the greatest leader. I mean, he had a really bad temper and I always had to coach people who got hired to report to him, not to take it personally, and he believed in internal competition.

You know, if people weren't fighting with each other then things weren't going well. but I thought some of his ideas, while controversial, were kinda clever, that being one of them.

Neil Milliken (24:37)
Yeah, no, it's fascinating. mean, we used to call that span of control and there were span of control rules and you're supposed to have 20 people in our organization if you're a manager because we were a service organization and we needed to be really lean and of course some kind of topics that can work really well. You can manage lots of people and other topics.

Well, you can't. Maybe there aren't 20 people in the organization even. And so I think that it's an interesting concept to get people to focus on managing rather than doing. And the temptation is always to do because sometimes you get to that point and you think, well, it's quicker if I do it myself.

But that's not scalable. So you need to be able to find ways to be able to share that knowledge, share that enthusiasm, and to be able to upskill organizations, which you've been doing for a long time. One last question before we go, because we've reached the end of our half hour and I need to be respectful of your time and everyone else's. What is the thing that you are

most excited about right now in terms of technology or in terms of new developments? You know, we talked about AI, we talked about other things. What's the one thing that you're most excited about that you think is going to give real benefit?

Deb Dagit (26:08)
You know, I not to repeat ourselves, but I do see both the scary part of AI and the enormous possibility. And using it myself has opened up all kinds of opportunities for me to take things that used to take me way too long almost completely off my plate.

At the same time, you know, having humans involved in checking every single thing that AI creates and making sure it's accurate and respectful is important. But I d I I think it's a game changer. I remember when the internet first came about and then we started meeting virtually like we're doing now, and how exciting it was that

for people who needed to work virtually all or part of the time, it leveled the playing field. and I think AI is gonna do that to the tenth power, but we're gonna have to shepherd it very, very carefully.

Neil Milliken (27:13)
Yeah, I agree. In terms of being an assistive technology for someone with cognitive accessibility needs like myself, the community that I'm part of there, it's the first new assistive tech that we've had in about 25 years, because everything else has been speech recognition, text to speech, spell checking, that's your lot, here you go, that's your technology bundle, and now you've got things that really support executive function.

In that respect, it's fantastic. At the same time, I share some of the concerns and the sort of the potential for inbuilt bias, the potential for decision making also could have a negative impact. Thank you, Deb. It's been a real pleasure interviewing you today. I need to thank Amazon who support AXSChat and help keep us on air. And thank you for your time.

Deb Dagit (28:02)
My pleasure. Looking forward to future conversations and hopefully an in person one in the near future.

Neil Milliken (28:09)
I look forward to it.