AXSChat Podcast with Aya Abdullah Jibreal – Inclusion and Accessibility Consultant

Aya Abdullah Jibreal – Inclusion and Accessibility Consultant

An Inclusive Design and Accessibility Consultant/Trainer with 7 years of experience in inclusion and accessibility.

• Worked with many entities around Saudi Arabia, exploring successful accessibility adoption for different business environments.
• Saudi Arabia representative at G3ict/Smart Cities for All global initiatives.
• First CPACC certified in Saudi Arabia.
• Certified in Disability Case Management.
• IAAP Strategic Leader in Accessibility (SLiA) initiative committee member. 

Transcript

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Neil Milliken: Hello and welcome to access chat today. I'm delighted to welcome I had cerebral who is an inclusive design and accessibility consultant with Alderman consultants in Saudi Arabia. It's great to have you with us. We first met in Geneva at the Aiello a couple of years back.

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Neil Milliken: really keen to hear about what you're doing, how you got into the field and then talk a bit more about the work that's going on on accessibility.

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Neil Milliken: In kiss.

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Neil Milliken: Because I know there's a lot going on. And a lot of people don't hear about it.

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Aya Jibreal: Yes, definitely. Thank you so much. Neil Antonio for hosting me today at x chat. I am a really big fan of what you guys are you guys are doing here. It's amazing how the discussion about accessibility access accelerating and

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Aya Jibreal: I love being part of this. Well, actually I

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Aya Jibreal: Graduated a design school and

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Aya Jibreal: I have a background in general in our direction and creative direction and from there I started to learn more about the inclusive design world and how as designers and creators can

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Aya Jibreal: expand their influence and benefit of what they're creating, whether it's buildings or spaces or, you know, any visual arts or sisters

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Aya Jibreal: At the end of the day it's reachable for all of us, and such mission and vision in anyone's life but definitely to match their experiences and I was really passionate about that. And from there, I started to more

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Aya Jibreal: Work closely about inclusive design. I've joined the company.

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Aya Jibreal: Business Disability Network where they've been working closely about inclusion of people with disabilities in the workforce and from there I started to specialize more in the digital inclusion and

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Aya Jibreal: Built Environment include inclusion and since around 2013 I started to get more certifications about that. I have a certification disability management and also as a seed pack which is a certified professional in accessibility from Audible happy and also

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Aya Jibreal: Part of our representing a GT ICT entity for as a representative for Saudi Arabia, and I think being involved in such a global platforms is is really benefiting the

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Aya Jibreal: Saudi Arabia itself and the national transformation initiatives and programs, that's been taking place lately around digitizing government and non government services for all the people in Saudi Arabia and also the

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Aya Jibreal: passion about including people with disabilities has risen and

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Aya Jibreal: And we believe that we have now real steps and real support.

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Aya Jibreal: To include people with disabilities as well, both as employees and as customers and business in general and Saudi Arabia started to also to an end to that mindset.

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Aya Jibreal: And believe in the business case of people disabilities, although that are still are many barriers and challenges, let's say,

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Aya Jibreal: To for us, as you know, experts in this field, trying to make this change, hand in hand with, you know, people committed from different entities and at the same time, the work has been taking part, whether it's in the educational sector or, you know,

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Aya Jibreal: This health care. And also, you know, other sectors in the economy in general.

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Aya Jibreal: So,

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Neil Milliken: Yeah.

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Aya Jibreal: So that's basically what takes me here. Now I'm I'm I'm consultancy office. So I've been working closely with one of the leaders in this industry Turner took too.

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Aya Jibreal: Much candy, she's been working for more than 20 years about the field of inclusion and in her. We believe that there are really

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Aya Jibreal: A big opportunity for us to start tapping on the different sectors sector, as I mentioned, and trying, you know, join the transformation that's good for the people in jail. He

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Neil Milliken: Said yeah that's that's fantastic. And I know from when I visited case, a couple of years ago that there's a great opportunity to build an inclusive society because

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Neil Milliken: Then you've got rapid growth and you're building all of this infrastructure. Now, so, so it's it's now or never to a certain way with some of the infrastructure, you know, and we

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Neil Milliken: Definitely want to come talk about you know some of the big infrastructure projects you've got underway like neon, maybe a little later.

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Neil Milliken: But I also saw the you know the airports are accessible. There were signs talking about accessibility throughout throughout buildings and the public spaces. So there is definitely you know

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Neil Milliken: A broad general awareness and willingness and yet it's not something that we've received out of our own little sort of northern European bubble is happening.

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Neil Milliken: So,

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Neil Milliken: At the same time, because you're not part of the northern European bubble, there are differences between what's required

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Neil Milliken: For northern European societies and certainly the Anglosphere and

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Neil Milliken: The Arab speaking world. So, so what have been some of the challenges that you faced and that accessibility in Saudi has face.

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Neil Milliken: Adapting some of the policies and tools that have been established in other parts of the world to really be fit for purpose for the Arabic speaking world.

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Aya Jibreal: Okay, great, great question. Now there is, you know, let's see, unique challenges that we're facing and the lead me

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Aya Jibreal: INTO SAUDI ARABIA basically

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Aya Jibreal: I think one of the main Richard you know barriers that we have here is the lack of codes unified codes and unified standards that's helping you know

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Aya Jibreal: Organizations, you know, have a clear path on what needed to be as an infrastructure to build to build a smart city or, you know, an inclusive service or an accessibility in general.

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Aya Jibreal: Both physical or digital. So, lack of such unified codes and reinforcing them activating them, you know,

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Aya Jibreal: Holding people or companies or entity is accountable for it. And that's where we are looking more towards having more, you know, regulations, you know, where governments enforce entities in a way or another to, you know, be compliant. So, such

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Aya Jibreal: Such infrastructure which is really important imperative and important for the inclusion of people with disabilities.

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Aya Jibreal: Is really missing numbers.

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Aya Jibreal: And still other countries, it's

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Aya Jibreal: Nina. Are you know racing towards having, you know, more and more regulations on the way and enforcement's

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Aya Jibreal: Ankles so changing the mindset where, you know, other countries still did not start the race or there's a huge lack of, you know, awareness about the inclusion of people disabilities as part of the human rights so

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Aya Jibreal: You know that there is a lot of variables and the work is more this way and you need, you know, to connect more the countries where they need to share best practices where they need to be supporting each other in such direction and

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Aya Jibreal: I think that's what makes us different from, you know, around the world, but at the same time, I think it's an opportunity for, you know,

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Aya Jibreal: Sharing more experience learning more about how you can actually create a real business case for inclusion of people disabilities and reinforce that point where

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Aya Jibreal: Even if the government do not have a strict you know regulations about that you still have the motive and you still have that commitment as an entity to lead on that and does influence it positively at the end of the day. So basically,

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Aya Jibreal: These challenges also differ on Saudi Arabia liberal or when resolving to Saudi Arabia, where there's still also

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Aya Jibreal: A need for, you know, committed or, you know, reinforced of the certain regulations we had a huge transformation when it comes to the labor law and, you know,

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Aya Jibreal: The justice system and humanize system for the people with disabilities. I'm sure that you are aware of the vision 2030

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Aya Jibreal: Or you've heard about it. So the vision have been really influential Kingdom wise to change mindsets and start to look at the citizen as a person.

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Aya Jibreal: And recognizing the differences in these people and such. It was encouraging for all everyone all the entities here to work towards this vision.

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Aya Jibreal: And it stated that people with disabilities have the rights, like any other person to be happy to have free access to work.

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Aya Jibreal: To social and health care services and even to work environment. So, such as leading. Now the way for it. But, you know, to actually that and keep that going. You know, and keep the ball rolling and where you need to be really connected and unified into building into that momentum.

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Antonio Santos: You mentioned smart cities and we know that there's quite a good number of initiatives taking place all of all over the world.

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Antonio Santos: And we know some of them, they, they, they start to engage with different communities to make sure that they don't miss them out from from the infrastructure from what they are building

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Antonio Santos: What can you tell us about what has been done in Saudi Arabia about having conversations with projects people running projects that relate with smart cities.

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Antonio Santos: To make sure that they are aware of the needs of people disabilities that and that the conversation starts at the early phase instead of, oh, later on in time that they have to go and fix something that they build that was not proper to us.

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Aya Jibreal: Yes, definitely. Thank you. And Tony for this. And, well, I'm really glad that since around 2018 there was a newly established authority called the authority of care from people disabilities and that

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Aya Jibreal: You know that authority now is responsible on raising awareness to such projects in Saudi Arabia.

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Aya Jibreal: Out of my, you know, work with them. I've been noticing that they've been trying to reach out for such projects as Neil mentioned new project. We have also a lot of, you know, under the work

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Aya Jibreal: Projects makeup projects in Saudi Arabia, where they are trying, you know, a boating revamping airports also all over the kingdom and other health institutions. So all of these projects now.

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Aya Jibreal: That authority is trying to, you know, reach out for them to try to encourage them to take into consideration, whether it was the best environment accessibility or any other

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Aya Jibreal: Aspects, there are also collaborations with ministries of ministry of communication. For example, the discussion has been closely taking place around, you know, kitchen for the people with disabilities on the digital platforms and what it means to be accessible in the digital world.

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Aya Jibreal: Out of also these

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Aya Jibreal: Initiatives that is also a

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Aya Jibreal: Work with a minister of health regarding creating barrier free, you know, digital platforms for, you know, patients with disabilities and the elderly.

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Aya Jibreal: I can you know go on and on and on. There's a lot of initiatives that is actually tapping on on one of the Big Omega projects.

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Aya Jibreal: We hope, however, that they these discussions, whether it's taking place that are putting real plans.

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Aya Jibreal: And executed also in a good manner because at the end of the day what we our priorities is that to have an actual on ground usability and change for whether it's for customers or employees or disabilities.

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Antonio Santos: No government services play an important role. So, and once again, we've seen accessibility being implemented in many different ways. What can you tell us about our accessibility is being implemented in government services in Saudi Arabia.

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Aya Jibreal: Yes, definitely. I can mentioned few first. There's also something called the digital transformation program. It is one of the executive programs and I mentioned national wise and that this program takes into consideration how they can transform all governments.

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Aya Jibreal: You know services to the digital world and cater for people in general, including the needs of people with disabilities in this process. So,

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Aya Jibreal: we've witnessed a lot of change in the digital services for the Ministry of Justice here in Saudi Arabia, they have been successfully, you know, creating a process to, you know, process legal legal issues in a very

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Aya Jibreal: User friendly manner. And there's also the health care of the Ministry of Health, the Ministry of Education, of course, that's a topic in itself because

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Aya Jibreal: After covered 19 indications still, you know, a given in Saudi Arabia, our online platforms so

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Aya Jibreal: There has been a huge transformation in creating an educational effective. Effective and educational platform for all students.

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Aya Jibreal: And all over this session and discussions to part about students with disabilities and how we can cater for them. And I've held some

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Aya Jibreal: Seminars, I think the last one was in the last month with the one of one of the major universities here in Saudi Arabia King Abdulaziz University agenda and they hosted me to speak about

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Aya Jibreal: You know, digital transformation for people with disabilities. And what does that mean, what are the standards and what needs to be done.

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Aya Jibreal: while creating digital platforms and catering for students with disabilities. During this pandemic. So I'm glad you know being asked to attend such seminars and

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Aya Jibreal: You know, out of nowhere, they contact you and you immediately know that this topic now gladly became, you know, a priority.

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Aya Jibreal: And the discussions need to take place and immediately you know such transformations need us also a specialist and consultants, you know,

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Aya Jibreal: Closely observing and, you know, working with these entities, because it's a it is a follow a process. And it's a growing process to make sure that is effective, all the way

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Antonio Santos: So before passing to Neil, I just

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Antonio Santos: I would like to know if. Do you see the conversation with the topic that are talking here today as a conversation that is also taking place in several media in the Saudi society know, is this something that people talk about

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Aya Jibreal: And I can say that it has been addressed somehow and maybe a different you know

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Aya Jibreal: Look, or angle because there is, has there has been a lot of discussion about, you know, minorities here in Saudi Arabia and people from different you know backgrounds and

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Aya Jibreal: People you know from different abilities or disabilities and they've been speaking about, you know, real life here and what we need to be doing to change.

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Aya Jibreal: Our society for the better and raising awareness about that immediately are places that people with disabilities awareness themselves and

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Aya Jibreal: They enable them to speak up and to create the demand that we are trying to utilize as you know whether their employees are talking about their work environments or customers, talking about the need of having

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Aya Jibreal: Proper quality service. So creating this need really helps us back, you know, to show the business case and

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Aya Jibreal: Prove that people disabilities are actually an important segment that is not only good as a human right to cater for them. But it's also making a great business case for it for the business.

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Neil Milliken: Great, so

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Neil Milliken: I know you've been doing some work with I double AP, as I've been on some of the same meetings as we're looking to look at sort of professionalization

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Neil Milliken: You you've talked about a bit about government services and you talked about the fact that covert has sped up that transformation.

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Neil Milliken: We've previously all in various different guises looked at maturity models. And I know that you've worked on maturity modeling in Saudi Arabia. How is that working now. And do you think that is

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Neil Milliken: Gained in importance given the the rapid speed of of transformation that is now happening as a result of this global pandemic throwing everything up in the air and requiring us to do stuff differently.

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Aya Jibreal: Yes, thank you, Neil. Yes, definitely. The maturity model actually was one of the early projects that I've worked on regarding, you know, creating a

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Aya Jibreal: System where companies can be, you know, able to create what we see a truly inclusive work environment for people with disabilities. This project actually was translated and launched

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Aya Jibreal: Into 2000 2017. It's one of the Ministry of labor minister of Human Resources national projects and this project was basically

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Aya Jibreal: Will adopted by companies here in Saudi Arabia. It was actually launched on different phases. It started with the major companies in Saudi Arabia. And now today. It is also available for the medium and the small sized companies and

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Aya Jibreal: It was greatly beneficial for us as consultants to have a framework that can using the maturity model here to work with a company starting the conversation about and a real actionable plan to start, you know, making the changes for its own employees and customers with disabilities.

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Aya Jibreal: A lot of companies have joined the certification and obtained it, but I really look forward, of having much more commitment from different organization, you know, to take this not only as, you know, a checklist or a certificate that they get. And now, but you know I

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Aya Jibreal: But are you way. And let's say clear plan to start working on its own environments for the best or for the better. So it's called mama certification and

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Aya Jibreal: Since the pandemic also with this. Some changes or let's say adaptations for after 40 to 50 you know after the pandemic situation so

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Aya Jibreal: The team. There was working more on you know embedding, you know, the teleworking programs and the you know the processes. Now that's been happening for most organization within its systems.

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Aya Jibreal: And the certification model itself and also they took in considerations of work or different work accommodations. Now that's the pandemic is more or less.

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Aya Jibreal: Have been, you know, a taking a certain priorities in that and safety healthcare aspects of the maturity model. And all of these, you know, and issues that's relevant for the place.

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Aya Jibreal: With disabilities within the organization, for example. So yes, some changes, changes, changes happen to mama and positive and positive that

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Aya Jibreal: The certification will even spread more if it was you know now linked to the safety and considerations for, you know, the company's on employees or your own customers. And I think that was listed for to become you know one of them.

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Aya Jibreal: Go to, or let's say you know you know major certifications that companies should obtain here. So they're committed to it. So yeah, that's more about it and also

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Aya Jibreal: You know, that's where I double AP and also the three ICT entities are helping me bringing more advocates and more about this year in Saudi Arabia and always glad because you know

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Aya Jibreal: Benchmarking is very important in this process and why you are, you know, are you have the access to the resources and the learnings from other entities have been

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Aya Jibreal: You know ahead of you in this game, but at the same time you're trying to take the learning out of that and trying to see how it fits in your own, you know, business culture and your own processes here in Saudi Arabia.

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Neil Milliken: So quick follow up on on this. So it is a one shot deal. Or is it something that you have to research if I overtime.

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Aya Jibreal: Yes, it is something that you have recertified. It's not like a one project that thing and that's what keeps them, you know,

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Aya Jibreal: The sustainability of the whole thing. And at the same time, it tells the company or the organization accountable if they did not, you know,

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Aya Jibreal: Work on the improvements they should have been working on in the previous year. So it's a good actually. It's a good system where you keep in track and you're making sure that you're on the right way.

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Neil Milliken: Yeah, absolutely. So I mean that that's one of the things I like about maturity models is that they are not these these one shot deals, they

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Neil Milliken: There a way of tracking your progress within an organization and sometimes regression because reality is that that things change and some things improve some things degrade over time and

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Neil Milliken: businesses and organizations are also living things, if you like. And so you have to sort of monitor this and understand

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Neil Milliken: And look at prioritizing this stuff. So I think that, you know, they're very valuable tools. When you say that you're benchmarking, you know,

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Neil Milliken: I know from work with the business disability from in the UK, that there is anonymous benchmarking goes on is the is the benchmarking anonymous in in or is it public.

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Neil Milliken: And by sector because obviously different sectors have different priorities and different challenges.

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Aya Jibreal: Will actually like I have a lot of friends on here. So, to the PDF and Israel city and either will be I think we're all learning from it and I really like how such organizations are committed to share the know how and the learning of course from what it is like

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Aya Jibreal: The certification where you need to put up a plan for it and attentive today and it is important for us to think about it as a whole system.

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Aya Jibreal: So the system should play part, you know, for organizations in a way that is helping them to grow. Also, so I definitely agree with you on on the comment of, you know, having the flexibility and, you know, and the sustainability aspect of the maturity model, definitely, of course.

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Neil Milliken: So,

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Neil Milliken: Where, where do you see these the next big thing in accessibility being I mean there's there's so much innovation and potential for innovation in the space because of technology.

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Neil Milliken: I know that the MENA region is actually investing heavily in technology to to diversify. That's what the you know the the the vision 2013 is all about is diversifying away from hydrocarbons into technology and tourism and knowledge economy.

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Neil Milliken: Where does accessibility fit in there. And where do you see there being opportunities.

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Aya Jibreal: Well, you know, an eel. It's everywhere. You can see it in mostly every economy called sector here and

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Aya Jibreal: Even in the areas where we fairly have a lot of, you know, established systems, especially you know even accessible system for people with disabilities but there's a lot of areas of development. So we're talking about health care, education, you know, entertainment,

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Aya Jibreal: Work and, you know, any, any, you know, catering for customers with disabilities, you know, all of these segments, whether it's a not both in the physical and the digital platform. There's definitely a need to develop on to draw on.

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Aya Jibreal: Even now, if we're talking geographically more you know, the change has been made more towards the major cities, but we still have lots of lots of feel smaller cities in the kingdom that also need

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Aya Jibreal: To have people disabilities. So we're talking about through areas or areas that like you know what a big city would have as an infrastructure so still the work and

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Aya Jibreal: There is a lot of work. And also, there is a lot of work on the social mindsets. They'll and I think that will never ever end at the end of the day, you need to

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Aya Jibreal: Having you know such a conversation today is still important to be taking place every now and then, you know, talking about the

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Aya Jibreal: Benefits of inclusion that impact of inclusion and accessibility is always something that needs to take place on the table of discussions, whether it's business discussions of projects discussions are innovation discussions.

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Aya Jibreal: So all of these questions. Now it is important to be inclusive in your process of design.

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Aya Jibreal: It is important to be inclusive in the process of creating your ideas and innovations and you know everything that you're talking about at the end of the day, your ideas.

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Aya Jibreal: must reach for everyone. Everyone must learn everyone must enjoy everyone must work. So I think that should be the default maybe in the future somewhere.

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Neil Milliken: And you just said, you've got that. So, tons of work to do.

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Yeah.

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Neil Milliken: So how are you going to do this. So I know you're working with Q3 ICT and business Disability Forum on all of this. So,

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Neil Milliken: Is there a large group of accessibility consultants in the MENA region that's hiding somewhere or are you going to have to grow them. And if you're going to have to acquire these skills. What's the plan to do it.

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Aya Jibreal: That's really insightful Neil actually as the discussions have been taking place where

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Aya Jibreal: You know, different entities in the MENA region to, you know, have a one entity that is, you know, representing such consultants and experts in this

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Aya Jibreal: From this you know region, it is important to be unified, it is important for us, you know, to start

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Aya Jibreal: A catering for the Arab world and trying as much as possible, make an influence there. So yeah, it's been going on. I hope there is something that I can, you know, talk about maybe

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Aya Jibreal: At the end of the year or the next year. I'm not sure how this would be launched, but I'm really happy to be on with this thing that hopefully in July will be there so

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Aya Jibreal: There's a lot of things to do for us to, you know, to bring this to, again, something to be working on and planning for for the next two years.

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Neil Milliken: Excellent.

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Neil Milliken: And Tony, did you have something

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Antonio Santos: Uh, no, I don't. I think it's, you know, it was

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Antonio Santos: Something that is very important for us is to is to share ideas and know what everyone is doing in in different in different parts of the world. So it was great to have you with us today.

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Antonio Santos: I and we look forward to follow to follow the conversation.

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Antonio Santos: On Tuesday on access chat.

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Neil Milliken: Yeah, thank you. And of course, we need to also thank the people that keep the lights on and the website up and running and it's captions. So thank you to Barclays access

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Neil Milliken: Micro link and my clear text for continuing to support us and there's less Antonio says, we look forward to you joining us on Twitter on Tuesday.

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Neil Milliken: Thank you.

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Aya Jibreal: SO MUCH. THANK YOU. Antonio, and also thanks to Deborah. No, she's not here today, but I am sure that you've been cheering for me all the way

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Neil Milliken: Absolutely.