AXSChat Podcast with Paul Carter, a journalist who works as senior producer and technology reporter for the BBC.

Paul Carter is a journalist who works as senior producer and technology reporter for the BBC. 

He was born without lower arms or legs. He has produced BBC Newsnight, BBC Radio 5 Live, BBC Travel Show and is a regular member of the team at BBCCLick the flagship technology show for the corporation.

Click has a worldwide audience of around 80 million and is shown on BBC News and BBC Worldwide.  The show regularly covers accessibility and inclusive technology and has a yearly special on accessibility.

Paul cares about technology, diversity and accessibility but is keen to point out that his role is reporting on all technology not just disability specific tech. He was involved in the BBC Leadership Development Programme 2020

You can find Paul on BBC iPlayer or on Twitter
https://twitter.com/paulcarterTV

Transcript

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Neil Milliken: hello, and welcome to access chat i'm very, very pleased to welcome Paul Carter today, I am a long term viewer and fan of BBC click, which is the program that Paul is a journalist on and.

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Neil Milliken: also helps produce that's been running 20 years and is on BBC News or BBC worldwide if you're outside of the UK so.

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Neil Milliken: And one of the reasons I like it is because it features all kinds of technology, including inclusive technologies so welcome Paul is great to have you and you know what we're pretty much replicating the new 2021 click studio here.

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Neil Milliken: By doing this, from home.

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Paul Carter: So thanks thanks for having me it's it's a it's a pleasure i'm honored to have been to been asked to do it, but yeah you're right, this is a it's kind of the new normal isn't it to be broadcasting from home yeah.

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Neil Milliken: Although I did see the sort of home broadcast kit that you had on on the show the other day, which was 50 grand for their kid in flight cases and everything else, with a little breakout lights and everything.

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Paul Carter: Well that's a Spencer and Laura the main presenters of our program and you know they have a they have full proper studio setups in the House, as you can see mines mines, not much of a backdrop so yeah I drew the short straw, no, no fancy lights and cameras for me.

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Neil Milliken: And and, likewise, for me, you know it is real punk it's not plastic.

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Neil Milliken: But, but other than that, yes, absolutely I think everybody is now doing video from home we're getting to see the insides of people's houses which is interesting some interesting ones on Newsnight, by the way.

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Neil Milliken: It didn't tidy up.

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Paul Carter: Do you know what it is a still a source of mystery to me that were what nearly a year into this and people still haven't worked out to not have their laptops pointing directly up their nostrils it's.

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Paul Carter: Slightly interesting put your put your web cams on books people come on yeah.

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Neil Milliken: So, for those of.

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Neil Milliken: Our viewers that don't know, can you tell us a little bit more about click and what you do and also sort of some of the stuff that you feature that's exciting.

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Paul Carter: So I mean i'll give you the i'll give you the official kind of spiel first of all, if you like, I mean click is the BBC.

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Paul Carter: flagship technology program, as you say, were brought broadcast on BBC News in the UK, because one on weekend mornings and worldwide on BBC World.

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Paul Carter: we've got a REACH of about 300 million and our weekly viewership is about 80 million worldwide so it's.

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Paul Carter: Pretty big I tend not to tell interviewees that before we speak to them, because sometimes that makes them very nervous and.

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Paul Carter: we're also we also go out what you might see sometimes on airlines or not so much at the moment, but if you know and you're in flight entertainment cruise ships things like that editorially we cover.

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Paul Carter: The whole gamut of technology and I do always say to people we're not a consumer technology program specifically so, and you know we're not strictly about our, this is the best TV to buy or.

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Paul Carter: there's a new phone out this week, you know we might we might not toward those if they were particularly relevant or interesting but that's not our sole.

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Paul Carter: kind of remit, we are, first and foremost the current affairs program so it's it's technology related to current affairs and and how that kind of ties in to broader themes such as.

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Paul Carter: artificial intelligence cyber warfare all of that kind of thing and everything everything in between, I always like to think of.

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Paul Carter: click as being about how does technology change the world that's always the way that I would describe it to other people and and then yeah outside of that we.

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Paul Carter: are translated into I think at last count 17 different languages and and it's available in over 200 countries and growing so yeah and in terms of accessibility and things like that we.

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Paul Carter: We cover accessibility, a lot it's gone up since I became involved in the show, but I should stress the program covered accessibility, long before I came along.

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Paul Carter: I produce a episode of the show every year to tie in with the I always have to think about this before I say International Day of persons with disabilities and.

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Paul Carter: But also i'm very keen to stress that we don't just do one show that's just about disability each year we do disability and accessibility stuff all year round, we just happened to do one show a year which we unashamedly devote just to that subject yeah spilling over great.

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Neil Milliken: And yeah I can back you up as as a regular viewer there's always you know quite frequently segments on and.

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Neil Milliken: Things that are sort of inclusive and talking about sort of impact on humanity of tech, so I always enjoy giving a fix of.

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Neil Milliken: people trying jetpacks and self driving cars and this stuff but also the sort of.

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Neil Milliken: Also, the sort of analysis of what's going on on the web and it's it's really eclectic and I think that's one of the reasons I I enjoy it so much because you don't necessarily know what you're going to get from wheat.

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Paul Carter: And, to be honest it's it's such an incredible beat to work because, by the very nature of what we're covering there is always something new there's always something happening there's always something exciting.

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Paul Carter: And I think, even more so nowadays it's an area that impacts and kind of reaches into into everyday lives, much more than it than it used to before you know and technology is is part of all of our lives now just in terms of.

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Paul Carter: Everything that we do throughout throughout the day, more so than it was 10 years ago, more so than it was 10 years before that so.

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Paul Carter: yeah it's it's never dull that's for sure.

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Neil Milliken: So every job yes you're coming with me great.

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yeah.

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Debra Ruh: yeah Thank you and welcome to the program Paul I I have not seen click and so i'm definitely going to make sure that I go out and look at it, because i'm a big fan of BBC, but I also applaud BBC for.

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Debra Ruh: Bringing you in because you obviously are very talented but at the same point you are also are have a lived experience of disabilities, and so I love that.

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Debra Ruh: That you are there, you know just just by you being there talking about these topics you you cause inclusion so.

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Debra Ruh: I we we don't see that as much in the United States, and so I see it, more in the United Kingdom, and I appreciate the United Kingdom for that, and certainly BBC, we are huge fans of BBC in the United States.

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Debra Ruh: So many of my friends, we all prefer BBC over some of our news media's and I won't say the names, but China who they are, but.

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Debra Ruh: I just like BBC, because the richness of the content, but I also like that BBC really focused on having.

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Debra Ruh: people that have lived experiences of different segments, because I just think that's so powerful, so I would be curious Paul, how did you get involved, I know you said it's been 20 years, which is amazing, but how did you get involved in this, because.

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Debra Ruh: You know it's a very successful program and obviously you're very talented producer but I was just wondering how it came about.

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Paul Carter: yeah sure I mean, but just just before I go on to that I, you know I do kind of want to want to caveat that just because I.

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Paul Carter: Do tend to cover all of our accessibility and kind of disability related stuff that's not just what I do I I cover I cover absolutely everything on the show.

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Paul Carter: As well as as well as disability and accessibility stuff it's not necessarily just oh we've got an access story let's we'll pull out that's not.

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Debra Ruh: No that's.

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Debra Ruh: A great point.

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Paul Carter: So that's good I mean in terms in terms of my background, I mean i've i've i've been at the BBC on and off.

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Paul Carter: Around 10 years I I trained as a journalist, I worked in print for a number of years for a disability publication.

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Paul Carter: And then, a couple of consumer magazines and then I moved across into into television and worked at a couple of independent production companies and joined.

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Paul Carter: The BBC again a few years ago to work on a program called news night, which is our kind of flagship evening political news program I guess you'd call it and and, yes, it i've worked in TV and in radio and I joined click.

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Paul Carter: Strong think of my days now, and about about three and a half years ago, so i've been on the program for about the last three and a half years so yeah i've kind of had a roundabout route to get where I am but i'm pleased to have ended up.

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Debra Ruh: And you know you bring up such a good point, because one thing that we see in the United States just speaking from the lens of the US right now.

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Debra Ruh: We will take people with disabilities and they only can work in the disability field.

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Debra Ruh: And it's ridiculous because you know that we are people, so we have a lot to add, so I think that's I think it's great that you're talking about accessibility disability inclusion.

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Debra Ruh: But I think it's even more powerful that you are not talking about that you're talking about technology, so I think we need to continue to change.

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Debra Ruh: The you know the dialogue, and I think you're a perfect example of you know somebody that's very talented that anyone would be lucky to be working with, and you know you did the steps you know that led to the success so kudos to you, and once again to BBC.

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Neil Milliken: So thank you.

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Neil Milliken: I can come in on that, I think that the actually there's no yes, the corporation does a good job, you know you're you're one of many represented in mainstream roles in front of camera i'm i'm also.

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Neil Milliken: Particularly like are you know Gary o'donoghue in terms of political correspondent you know mainstream role.

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Neil Milliken: You know gary's amazing because Gary does all of his video edits and he's a jaws user, so you know Gary fantastic but but, but most of the point he's doing a mainstream.

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Neil Milliken: role and it's not disability focus, so it is like you say it's you know it's representation as part of the wider organization that's interesting i'm also interested in the behind camera stuff because actually you know.

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Neil Milliken: it's great to have people in front of camera but also needs to be that opportunity to work behind camera making the decisions because that also impacts.

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Neil Milliken: representation so as a producer, you know what are the sort of steps being taken, you know, or do you think are important to take to be inclusive, because obviously you know.

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Neil Milliken: You can have obvious disability so there's also lots of hidden disabilities as well, and how can we make the best of of of our opportunities to lead and include through some of the behind camera roles.

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Paul Carter: yeah I mean it's you're totally right and it's a it's a big question because.

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Paul Carter: there's there's not just one there's not just one easy easy solution, I mean there are several ways, you know to tackle it, I think that.

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Paul Carter: whole thing about on screen representation is a big one, because I think a lot does does come from that in terms of.

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Paul Carter: You know I mean I hate to use the word kind of inspiration and I don't I don't mean it in the kind of the term that it's that it's come to be to be labeled as but, and you know.

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Paul Carter: People often say to me 20 years ago they didn't see other disabled people on TV doing doing mainstream role, so I do think that that does have a benefit.

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Paul Carter: But I think in terms of the the sort of softer power, if you like, it is about getting more people involved behind the camera because you know the whole ethos of nothing about us without us is is.

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Paul Carter: Especially important in in television and where I think that that's most critical is actually in story selection and it's about.

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Paul Carter: Getting disabled people telling the stories that are important to us and to our lives and to our communities.

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Paul Carter: and not the stories that non disabled people think are important to disabled people and that's a subtle change, but I think that's really important.

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Paul Carter: And you know that's that's come to pass on on on the program that I work on certainly people just come to me and said hey we are, what do you think of this and I would say no absolutely not we're not doing that.

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Paul Carter: And, but you know I always caveat with X, Y and zed and that that's why we shouldn't be doing that type of story or whatever, but I mean you know even now you, you will see stories.

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Paul Carter: That are out there are not i'm not just talking about the BBC i'm talking generally and you can tell straight away that there were no.

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Paul Carter: Disabled people involved in the production of that content and because you know that if there were never would have been made and and to get to that point, I think, is is critical and how we do that, I mean you know that's it's a big question there's a lot to do, around.

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Paul Carter: pipeline in to the media for people so that's you know recruitment, training, all of that retention, which is, which is the big one that's often forgotten about it's great.

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Paul Carter: getting people in on schemes, but it's then about actually keeping those people within your organization and allowing them to grow and to move upwards, and to actually get to those.

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Paul Carter: leadership positions where they can where they can make those decisions and promotion and.

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Paul Carter: You know, and then I think, also for people like me it's enabling other people it's create it's building bridges behind you and throwing ladders down, if I can use those terrible cliches you know and.

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Paul Carter: it's I see it as my responsibility to give opportunities to other young disabled reporters to get on screen to other producers to come and tell their stories so.

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Paul Carter: You know there's not one there's not one magic bullet it's it's fighting on a on a on a number of fronts and it's not something that's going to change overnight as an organization is the BBC doing well, I think, yes, absolutely could we do better hundred percent yeah.

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Neil Milliken: I think that's fair and I was lucky enough to be able to take a course sponsored by the BBC in the media trust, which was looking at.

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Neil Milliken: Giving media skills to.

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Neil Milliken: Disabled people to be expert interviewees so, so I think that that's another element where quite often, you know we'll have the same speaking.

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Neil Milliken: Talking heads brought onto the news programs all the time and actually there's less of a diversity and guests, and I think that this that initiative was also really interesting because yeah.

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Neil Milliken: And it's not just BBC all news programs end up wheeling out the same commentators all the time, so, so I think that this was a really nice initiative, where it was training people in academia, or who who have some kind of expertise, how to deal with interviews how to.

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Neil Milliken: Look at the camera sit still which i'm failing to do right now.

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Neil Milliken: it's harder with a webcam has to be said yeah yeah and actually that leads into my next question, which is actually how has broadcasting adjusted.

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Neil Milliken: In terms of covert and we've already talked a little bit about doing it from home, but how how how difficult, is it now to produce programs when everyone is distribution.

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Paul Carter: yeah it was something that we basically learned on the job.

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Paul Carter: When the kind of the original lockdown hit you know here in the UK in in March last year.

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Paul Carter: No one really from the from the from the Channel came to us and said, you know you're coming off air, so we were just we basically took the decision among ourselves that we're going to do.

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Paul Carter: You know the best we can, the best we can do, and we knew that obviously it was going to change the way the way we work, and to be honest with you, there was no.

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Paul Carter: There was no magic master plan we just kind of rolled with it, and so what worked and what didn't work and kind of tweak little bits as an as and when we as a when we went and.

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Paul Carter: You know I mean I think in those early days we we did have to do things very, very differently, because we weren't able to get out and film anything at all.

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Paul Carter: which was kind of a culture shock for us because we're a, as I said before, we're a global program and you know we travel all over the world to film our content and then suddenly.

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Paul Carter: To not only not be able to leave the country, but to not be able to leave your own home was a bit of a reversal for us in in how we did things so it was.

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Paul Carter: Basically, making use of the best of what we had to platforms platforms like zoom and to interview our guests and using.

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Paul Carter: A lot of creative creative kind of tricks and tools that we had you know, maybe getting people to film stuff remotely for us on on their phones or.

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Paul Carter: or whatever just anything we could do to try and break up the kind of monotony of it just being people talking on zoom.

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Paul Carter: And I like to think we did pretty well at it and it seemed to go down pretty well and obviously can't wait to actually get back out and.

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Paul Carter: be doing stuff in person again and but yeah you know.

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Paul Carter: it's been it's been a challenge for everyone, everyone has has had to learn to do everything differently and we're we're know we're no different to that i'm Certainly not.

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Paul Carter: Certainly not complaining, you know we just We just have to get on with it, and I think I think we've done okay.

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Paul Carter: And we were lucky enough that when things opened up a little bit for the halcyon days of summer.

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Paul Carter: We were able to get out and do some stuff in the in the flesh again and sort of fill that fill the shelves, with some content, so we weren't we weren't completely back to square one, and so yeah it's.

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Paul Carter: i'd say even now what nine months in we're still we're still learning we're still tweaking it we're still trying new things but.

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Paul Carter: If anything it's kind of given us a bit more, I mean I certainly wouldn't go as far as to say it's been a blessing or anything like that, but.

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Paul Carter: It is kind of to a degree, has given you a little bit of creative freedom because it's been like okay well we'll try this and if it doesn't work it doesn't work it's um yeah.

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Paul Carter: it's been it's been a challenge but we're.

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Paul Carter: we're tackling it I guess.

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Debra Ruh: along that same line, what do you think you're going to keep from what you learned about coven from the lessons you've learned with coven 19, what do you.

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Debra Ruh: What do you think that y'all y'all think Oh well, it works much better now this way I mean were there any real valuable lessons learned or and once again I know that still unfolding but.

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Paul Carter: I mean, I think, on on on a wider perspective, obviously, the whole nature of working remotely it's something that you know if you'd have asked us a year ago.

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Paul Carter: Whether we could make nine months worth of content, without seeing each other i'd have thought you know I would have laughed at you.

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Paul Carter: And we've been doing that for nine months, and so I absolutely think there will be elements of that that we that we take forward that.

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Paul Carter: it's going to reduce things like that, and this doesn't just apply to us, or to the TV, I think this is this applies to everybody, I think, and.

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Paul Carter: The whole concept of presenteeism and things like that will will definitely reduce because of this, and that has plays as big plays as well into.

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Paul Carter: access issues, by the way, and but in terms of you know, in terms of us, specifically, I think that the whole notion that we don't necessarily have to be.

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Paul Carter: On the other side of the planet to see stuff for to or to bring stuff to life on screen is is.

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Paul Carter: interesting and probably something that I would, I would say that's probably going to raise the bar slightly for us in terms of having to travel and go and go and do things, obviously we still will do that and.

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Paul Carter: But I think perhaps we we might think about doing that a little bit harder than we perhaps would have done before.

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Neil Milliken: and

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Neil Milliken: So obviously that has a positive sustainability impact because your carbon footprint is going to be somewhat less, but what do you think that this will have an impact, also on.

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Neil Milliken: On sort of studios and longer term as well you know, will it give you know, for example, you mentioned in terms of you know, access implications already do you think it will open up opportunities for.

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Neil Milliken: Journalists more with disabilities, where they maybe have mobility issues that would have been.

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Neil Milliken: Maybe the expectations, where you have to travel everywhere, in order to report, for example, do you think that will that will be that impact, and do you think also the the fact that we've gotten used to citizen journalism and slightly untidy and unkempt backgrounds and everything else.

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Neil Milliken: change our expectations for and need for studios and stuff like that.

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Paul Carter: yeah I mean, I hope, so I I absolutely hope that's what that's what happens i'm.

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Paul Carter: i've been in the game long enough that i'm not gonna sit here and say yes we're we're we're never going to go back to the way we used to make things 18 months ago because.

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Paul Carter: You know who knows who knows how the world works I I really, really hope so and it's I think it's everyone's responsibility to.

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Paul Carter: Take the good things that have come out of this what what few things that may be, but to take those and to and to take those forward.

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Paul Carter: And I think you know, one of the interesting things you mentioned, there about the whole concept of people are much more forgiving about.

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Paul Carter: dodgy backgrounds and all of that I, I do think that's a really interesting point and that's something that we learn very quickly in this isn't that if you can you know understand what someone is what someone is saying, and you can.

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Paul Carter: You can get the gist of what's coming across people aren't that bothered about what it looks like.

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Paul Carter: And one of the really interesting things that we learned quite early on in in recording zoom interviews This might be a boring people boring thing people don't work in TV, but we actually got.

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Paul Carter: The people were interviewing to record their sound on their on their mobile phone or any device that they had locally to them at the same time as doing the zoom interview and then sent us the.

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Paul Carter: The audio file afterwards, because we realized pretty early on it, you know people's Internet drops or whatever, and the picture goes blocky.

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Paul Carter: That doesn't really matter as long as you can still understand what what those people are person saying.

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Paul Carter: And it's just little things like that, though, again, you know we probably wouldn't have even considered say and yeah in terms of the whole thing about.

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Paul Carter: studios and and will improve access for for disabled people getting on the air, I really hope so, and hopefully those days of you know well, if you can't get into a is the end point we can't have you on the air.

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Paul Carter: Hopefully, those days are gone and but like I say it, I think it's going to be very easy I think what will be surprising will be how quickly, all of this is forgotten once things get back to normal.

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Paul Carter: I know normal may seem a long way off now but and and I think it's everyone's it's everyone's responsibility, particularly when it comes to things like access to remember the things are things have been possible, now that we wouldn't have thought were possible 18 months ago.

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Antonio Santos: Well, one of the we have guests in the past and we have discussed about the representation of people with disabilities within media.

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and

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Antonio Santos: And even if we look today across all the different news around Europe rogan's and shows it's not really flattering in terms of what we see in terms of.

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Paul Carter: hey.

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Antonio Santos: Can you hear me.

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Neil Milliken: Yes.

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Debra Ruh: yeah that is better okay so.

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Antonio Santos: We have been well guess in the past, where we discuss about representation in media.

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Antonio Santos: And what do you think we need to do in order to have more people more visible, because if we look around Europe to different media outlets.

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Antonio Santos: Best to lot to do know people are still doing i'm not really represented as they should, so how can we progress faster.

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Paul Carter: I think it's an interesting question it's it's a two sided it's a two sided thing right you've got to first of all, the first big challenge is you've got to.

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Paul Carter: convince these organizations that are responsible for increasing that representation you've got to make them think that it's some it's a cause not cause that's not the right word.

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Paul Carter: But it's something that they should be doing right that's that's the big organizational institutional challenge, and you, you have to show broadcasters why.

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Paul Carter: it's important to them to be putting disabled people on screen right that's the that's The first challenge they've got to realize that there is a business case and that they should be representing their audiences and.

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Paul Carter: And then I think the second point flows from that and it kind of goes back to to the whole issue of having people on screen.

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Paul Carter: That, then, shows other people that this is, this is a career, for me, this is, this is something that I can do, and providing opportunities for those people to have roots in to the industry.

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Paul Carter: I think the media has got very good, certainly in the UK running and schemes and apprenticeship programs and recruitment drives around increasing disability representation there's a long way to go.

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Paul Carter: On moving beyond that, because I think we've done we've done a very good job at getting people in on the ground floor and and.

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Paul Carter: Excuse me, as I mentioned.

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Paul Carter: Where you take that with with retention and promotion and things like that that's that's the next stage, beyond that, but I think for countries broadcasters other other areas of industries that aren't at that level yet.

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Paul Carter: You need to make those people with the decision making power has realized that this is something that they absolutely have to be doing that's a bigger challenge.

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Paul Carter: But I think there are lots and lots of moves afoot to come to kind of show that there is a business case out there for increasing representation and increasing accessibility and.

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Paul Carter: If I can make one third point from that the that link between representation and accessibility is really important, as well because it's no good having a desire to bring more disabled people into your industry if your industry isn't accessible to them.

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Neil Milliken: yeah I think that those are really good points because.

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Neil Milliken: If you can't do these things, one thing at a time, there has to be this sort of inter woven approach because.

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Neil Milliken: accessibility is the enabler to for people to be able to perform at the level of their of their potential, so you know it's it's great that you give someone a job, but if they can't then do that job then they're going to fail and that's going to.

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Neil Milliken: have implications so.

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Neil Milliken: The the technology as the enabler as well as the policies and the recruitment and everything else is is the thing that will help people progress thinking about technology, because quickly is about technology water, the technologies that are really exciting you right now.

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Neil Milliken: Generally, and then, also in terms of you know, with with potential to include people.

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Paul Carter: I mean, obviously, the big stuff around is is everything around artificial intelligence gets a bit of a hill that I will die on at the moment that everyone is calling everything Ai when it is an Ai and that drives me absolutely bonkers and, but I think you know true Ai has has lots of.

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Paul Carter: Access implications and possibilities and and a lot of the big tech companies are calling on to that Microsoft, for example, i've got an API for accessibility grants program and their funding a lot of businesses that are looking to use artificial intelligence in.

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Paul Carter: Accessibility applications I featured one of them one of their grant recipients in our last accessibility special and it's using.

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Paul Carter: Ai for object recognition and for blind and visually impaired people, because there are lots of data sets out there at the moment for object recognition or object recognition isn't new.

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Paul Carter: And, but there are very little data sets that exists out there for objects that are specific use to blind and visually impaired people and and so Microsoft the funding funding a research project to try and.

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Paul Carter: To build up those kind of those kind of databases and that's just one example, there are you know dozens out there, so I think I think Ai has.

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Paul Carter: has huge implications, the other interesting thing and I mentioned this, as both a kind of real.

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Paul Carter: positive thing, but also kind of a negative is is vr and I think virtual reality and augmented reality as well, have huge potential On one hand for accessibility and for disabled people, but at the same time, they are throwing up.

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Paul Carter: A huge number of issues around accessibility and i've got a.

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Paul Carter: An oculus quest headset and I can't use the controllers, because I don't have hands and that they are very specifically designed.

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Paul Carter: For hands, because they fit around your wrist and you use your fingers to press the buttons.

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Paul Carter: And it has hand tracking built in, so you don't have to use the controllers obviously hand tracking doesn't work for me, so therefore.

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Paul Carter: A lot of the programs and the software that runs on that platform is designed to be used specifically with those controllers, so I can't use it and.

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Paul Carter: So that's a kind of a real conundrum and it in a way it's part of the accessibility, an inclusive inclusive tech kind of debate, if you like, that I absolutely love, because with all of these great new.

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Paul Carter: developments and progress we make in one area it throws up a whole host of accessibility issues on, on the other hand, and.

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Paul Carter: it's it's fascinating to me and where we will go with that is you know who knows i'm i'm looking at a project at the minute that is quite close to me that it's a group of researchers and looking at.

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Paul Carter: Hand tracking and input for devices for people that don't have that don't have hands or might have paralysis, so that kind of stuff is really is really interesting the whole, I think the the next kind of great battlefront of.

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Paul Carter: accessibility is going to be around ux I think that's going to be a really interesting.

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Paul Carter: area, so those are the two sort of big things i'm really interested in the other is the other thing that everyone really talks about is obviously driverless cars i'm.

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Paul Carter: i'm a i'm an autonomous vehicle skeptic I think a lot of the industry is built on hype and but again it's kind of a bit of a unicorn for disabled people right, because if they were to become a reality tomorrow, how brilliant would that be for disabled people everywhere that they could.

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Paul Carter: Get in a car outside and take it to where they want to go and, but I think we're miles off that yet, despite what the despite what the autonomous lobby will tell you they're all going to be banging down my door now to.

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Paul Carter: me but yeah those are those are kind of the three three big areas for me and, but there are lots of other interesting things bubbling under as well.

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Neil Milliken: I think that's I think that's excellent and and you're right about the the challenges of new technologies, you know, throwing up new.

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Neil Milliken: Accessibility questions and that's one of the exciting things about working in the field is that you get to again explore new new things and and solve new problems again so.

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Neil Milliken: Thank you very much we've reached the end of our allotted time need to thank our friends and supporters Barclays access my career tech so Michael link for helping peepers going after all this time and really look forward to joining us on Twitter.

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Paul Carter: Absolute pleasure thanks for having me.